S02E13 Sara: The Power Of Words, Choices and Care. Two Different Births, One in Denmark, Another in Switzerland.

Sara is a researcher and doula in Zurich, her own website and her resources are below this description. 

What if the difference between a hard birth and a healing one was a few well-chosen words, a handful of choices and a team that truly listened? Sarah’s story spans two countries and two radically different experiences where she found her rhythm, her voice, and her power. Her first, an induction in Denmark marked by pressure toward an epidural that failed, and later, in Zurich, having to forgo her goal of giving birth at Delphy's Birth House, for an induced hospital water birth at Triempli Stadtspital.

We walk through the real contrasts in maternity care. Denmark’s midwife-led approach offered continuity and calm, with minimal medicalisation. Switzerland provided more monitoring, options, and risk framing. Both helped in different ways, but the decisive factor was how supported Sarah felt. After a tough recovery the first time, including a third-degree tear and weeks of painful feeding before a tongue tie was found, she dove into preparation for her second: a birth house plan, a doula by her side, and tools like hypnobirthing, sophrology, breath counts, and a TENS unit. When her waters likely released and the clock started, she transferred to hospital and advocated clearly: no oral misoprostol, start with a midwife’s brew, then use a reversible oxytocin drip. An “angel midwife” kept the space safe. The oxytocin built, she stayed in rhythm, and the team filled a birth pool. With calm coaching to slow crowning, she birthed her son gently with no tearing.

Sara's Resources:
Why and how to use the TENS machine

Blog post on TENS

Epi-no device, to train and stretch the perineum, to prevent tears (a good alternative is perineal massage):

Favorite international birth stories podcasts:

- https://australianbirthstories.com/

- https://www.thepositivebirthstorypodcast.com/

hypnobirthing listening track and meditation/timer app for labor:

Favorite and super knowledgeable IBCLC lactation consultants (in CH/IT/DK - all offer online consultations in EN)

Fitness and pregnancy/birth wisdom

Surprisingly true and favorite reads: 1   2

Sara's own doula website: www.ri-nascere.ch

Chapters

• 0:07 Season Two Closing And Thanks
• 1:44 Meet Sarah And Her Family
• 6:06 Denmark’s Midwife-Led Care Explained
• 12:23 Monitoring, Anxiety, And Overdue Decisions
• 17:36 Induction Day And Birth Room Setup
• 21:58 Pressure Toward Epidural And Its Failure
• 27:14 Pushing, Birth, And Early Postpartum
• 33:58 Healing, Tongue Tie, And Feeding Struggles
• 36:42 Swiss Care Model And Risk Framing
• 40:52 Naming Trauma And Rebuilding Confidence
• 45:30 Birth House Plans, Doula Support, Tools
• 51:08 Waters Gone, Timers On, Hospital Transfer
• 55:05 Advocating For Induction Choices
• 1:00:24 Oxytocin, TENS, And Finding A Rhythm
• 1:03:21 Water Birth, Gentle Pushing, No Tears
• 1:08:03 Wochenbett Care And Second Postpartum
• 1:12:09 Siblings, Support, And Feeding Fixes
• 1:17:12 Most Brilliant Moment And Outro

Transcript

Julia: 0:07

Hi, welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. I'm Julia Neal, mother, perinatal educator, hypnobirthing coach, and trainee doula.

Christine: 0:17

And I'm Christina Bliven. I'm a doula, baby wearing consultant, childbirth educator, and mother of three.

Julia: 0:25

Hi everyone. Julia here. Just super quick before the episode begins. This episode is the end of season two. I um logged on today, and I am just amazed to see that some episodes have literally hundreds of listens. This is such a dream for Christina and I who started this project to get the stories to where they need to be and to the ears of you guys. So thank you so much for listening. And thank you for sharing this podcast with anyone who needs it as well. We are really grateful. We have a bunch of episodes for season three already recorded. And they're going to come your way starting in January of 2026. Yeah, that's all. So I hope you have a truly wonderful holiday season and a really great slide into 2026. And we can't wait to have you back here for season three. But before that, please enjoy this fantastic episode.

Christine: 1:44

Today we're talking to Sada. She and her husband are Italian, but were living in Denmark for the birth of their first child, and their second was born at TheMe Hospital in Zurich. Sada talks about both births comparing and contrasting the maternity care system in Denmark and Switzerland. She talks about the impact that a few words, whether discouraging or supportive, can have on your birth, the importance of reflecting on your birth, and the unexpected faces of trauma.

Julia: 2:13

Hi, Sarah. Welcome. We are so happy to have you here. To get us started off, could you tell us a little bit about you and your family?

Sara: 2:23

Hi, I'm so grateful also to be here. It's so exciting. So my name is Sarah. We are both from Italy. We live here in Zurich since around five years this time. I already lived here when I was younger during my studies for five years. So it's I know Zurich pretty well. And in the middle of these two Zurich days, basically we're living in Denmark, in Copenhagen, as we are both researcher. Before I was working at the university, um, yeah, and uh now we live here with two children. Olympia, she's six, and Julio, she's three years old. Yeah, and um, I mean, now I work, of course, with pregnancy in my work, and that was a real big life change. And it's because during my pregnancies I really fell in love with birth, with babies, with everything that and also I realize there is a big gap of knowledge also there, so that's why I think it's important for people to invest their time there. Yeah.

Christine: 3:47

That's a great segue. Um, could you tell us a bit about your pregnancies and maybe even before the pregnancy, how you guys decided to start a family?

Sara: 3:57

Yeah, so um, so as I said, we are a long time uh in love. Uh so I'm together with my husband since we are I was 17. Um, and um during the university we were together in Italy, and then we had a time apart with long-distance relationship. So somehow it got delayed, and um, it was only when I could join him in Denmark, and this was in 2015, 2016, then we got married, and then there it was the right time to start to think about kids. Um, so then we decided we would try for one, and um, it didn't come immediately, so it was quite tough, uh, frustrating. Um, because somehow um one thinks, why shouldn't it happen? And um, and then there is this period every month in which you expect so much, and then uh yeah, nothing happens. Um, and then somehow we went to holidays. I think it was eight months or so that we were trying, and um, then we came back and I was pregnant, so all of a sudden I think it was just yeah, being relaxed and not thinking about it, and this was this was a very nice surprise. Um, yeah. And then pregnancy like so the pregnancy was quite um normal. Um, I mean, in the beginning I had a bit of nausea and so on, but nothing major. I never, yeah, it was really manageable and I was full of energy that pregnancy. Um, I was really amazed of how the body changes. So this was really my first thing. Oh my god, that's that's crazy that we are able to do these things. And um, and in Denmark, it's really nice uh the system because somehow they let you leave it alone basically. So there is not this medicalization of pregnancy. Um, so you you only get to see a general doctor for blood tests, but this happens really only in the first trimester, and then you are referred to the midwifery group at the I guess in every city there is a midwife, midwifery group, and there you are assigned to uh Ebame that keeps following you during pregnancy, so you only get to see the same EBAME every appointment, and um you have only two scans throughout the whole pregnancy, uh, at uh three months and uh at uh five months to check the morphological of the baby. Um, but other than that, if everything goes well, you basically never see an obstetrician. Like you don't even know they exist in Denmark somehow. Um you don't even know so much that once I had a scare during that pregnancy, um, because somehow I had contractions or frightening quite early, around four or five months, and then I didn't know, and I called the midwifery line, and there I think I don't know, they they misunderstood me, so they told me a little bit off. They were like, no, calm down, blah blah. And I I was clearly anxious about it. So then I tried to to take a private appointment to an obstetrician and so on. And basically, everyone that I was on the phone with, they were telling me, like, in two months, you can kind of was like, I don't think I can wait so much, but yeah, but anyway, then um somehow I got called back by the hospital, and they were like, I'm so we are sorry, you should come in, and blah blah blah. So at the end, the system worked quite well that way, yeah. But everything was fine, and um, I mean, what I discovered then that also was valid for my other pregnancy is that I have a probably um hyper hyper excited or hypercontractile uterus, so it starts to contract very early, but this doesn't lead to anything, so I just have bractonics for half of my pregnancy basically, yeah. Wow, so you have this in both pregnancies? In both pregnancies, yes, and the second time I already knew that the first time basically I was overdue for so long that uh I it didn't concern me anymore. But I have to say, in Switzerland they monitor me more, like they would do uh internal ultrascan to measure the cervix at every appointment afterwards, so I was more monitored in Denmark. It was only that time they did an internal ultrasound, and then they said the cervix as a normal length, so no worries about it, just take a break and um yeah work a bit less and blah blah and but they weren't really worried. So also this positive attitude somehow makes you I think um more thinking like it is a physiological thing that your body goes through, not not so much of a disease or anything else, yeah.

Julia: 9:43

Yeah, how would you contract how would you contrast the experience in Denmark of pregnancy than with Switzerland's model?

Sara: 9:53

Yeah, I think in Switzerland, um if you really like to have information and to know, like if you feel reassured by knowing things and tests and undergo tests, and uh you know that then I think it's a good system because it's quite flexible, doctors give you appointments, doctor will give will make scans if you ask, or make tests. So I think in that way it's good, but on the same time it's bad if you are rather uh stressed in this kind of medical environment. Yeah, I think it's much more medicalized here than it is in Denmark, definitely. Yes.

Julia: 10:42

How did you feel in pregnancy?

Sara: 10:44

Um I think this first pregnancy was quite uneventful. I felt very good and uh I didn't have any pains really. And um yeah, I was going hike. I remember we went to holidays in the mountains, I was walking, going uphill, it wasn't a problem any at all, and I felt pretty good. Um at the same time, emotionally, I was a bit like um, yeah, I think I was anxious about the birth, but somehow my way of dealing with it was to ignore it. Like I would ignore there was this thing at the end, and um and and kind of to trust that things would would come to me, like information would come to me, and people would tell me what to do and how to deal with everything, and um yeah, and I think that retrospectively, of course, was a mistake. Um, but uh yeah, that's what happened, and then um there you basically stopped stopped working like one month before the due date, uh by law, basically, that's the maternity leave when it starts, and there it was winter, I was at home alone, and then I started a bit panic, and I was like, oh my god, yeah, it needs to really happen, and uh yeah, and the only thing we basically did to prepare was uh the course at the hospital, um, and it was good, but um it was mainly about like the practicalities, what yeah, what how much stays to stay at home, how the labor is divided, the phases of labor, which drugs you can use for pain relief and so on and so forth, but it wasn't really about yeah, this emotional and psychological aspect that is so important, I think, for labor and birth. Um, so yeah, so basically this last month I had this few information that I had, and then um yeah, I just remember there I got very lazy, I was staying at home watching movies and things, and I got into this. Um there was a Netflix series about midwives in the like 1950s, and I remember I was watching this series episode after episode, and um somehow I I I found this emotional release at the end. At the end, I would cry every time uh there was a birth, and this was my way of kind of dealing with the fear, I guess. I don't know, but uh yeah, call the midwife, yeah, exactly.

Christine: 13:54

Those can be quite intense, yeah.

Sara: 13:57

Yeah, I think I watched one of those while pregnant and decided no, right state of emotions to be in, but yeah, yeah, but yeah, somehow I really liked it, and yeah, it was my way to relate to birth at that point, somehow. Yeah, I didn't, and I I think it was six or seven years ago there was not really this social media information, all the YouTube video and everything that is available now. I mean, it was if you read a book or if you Google, then you may find the right source. But I think at that time, if you would Google, then it was all this um like this blog of Baby Center, all this websites where there were quite negative information and stories. So I was I decided no, I I wouldn't Google. Um yeah, so basically that that's how it went. Um, and then um so the my due date came and went, and um I think I had a last visit, not last, no, it was the second to the last visit with the midwife. She gave me a membrane sweep. She asked me if I was um okay to get things going a little bit, and um I said yes, why not? She gave me that, but basically nothing happens. Uh nothing happened, and um, a few days later, um, I think I wake up, I woke up during the night, and somehow I couldn't feel the baby moving so much. Um, so I was like, that's weird, because usually she was very active at night. I mean, very yeah, she was a very active baby somehow. And um, and then in the morning I wake up again and I was like, that's very weird. And then I started to eat breakfast and all this kind of stuff, and I felt her again, but then I thought, yeah, I just called the hospital and see what they say. I'm overdue. Let's say, let's see. Then they told me to come in, um, and they checked me uh with the CTG, and I think everything was fine. So they send me home and they told me basically um our um yeah, our routine is that at 10 days post due date, um, a midwife will call you and we we will basically touch pace with you of how things go, and then you you can be scheduled for induction. That's how is our protocol. I was like, okay. Um then I think it was still uh maybe a midwife visit because if you go overdue, also there you're getting monitored more more time, more frequently. Um, but also there nothing was really happening. Um and then I got to one day before they would call me, and I again had this feeling of the baby wasn't moving enough. So then this time I was like, I I really need to go in because uh I was quite stressed about it, I have to admit. Um, so then we went again. Um, and this time, even though the CTG was okay, they took me a bit more seriously. Um, so then they they called the first obstetrician I've seen during my pregnancy. Um, and they they they basically did an ultrasound and they suddenly realized the baby was very big. Um so for my whole pregnancy, um, the only way that they measure the growth is by manual touching. So they manually touch your belly and they just say, yeah, the baby is two kilos, or the baby is three kilo point four, blah blah. Um, and up until that point, uh all the measures were from the midwives were quite on the normal side. They were saying, yeah, three and a half kilos, maybe a bit less, blah, blah. And then this ultrasound already, they were saying, yeah, she's for sure over four kilos, and uh, she's very big. Um, and what was more concerning was that um they started to see some signs that the placenta wasn't working well anymore. Um, and that's why then they say we advise you to stay here, and then we can start the induction process as soon as possible, because I think um these signs that we saw from the ultrasound are to be taken cautiously. Um then, of course, I was a bit like uh scared because this was kind of a big bomb to be said, you have a very big baby. Um and um I don't know. So then yeah, after the the first shock, of course, we agreed to it. Um and they basically started the induction the next morning. So we stayed one night at the hospital there. And um from all the basically the the visits that they did, they could see that I was already a bit dilated. So I was, I don't know, I don't maybe two centimeters, something like this. So it something already was was happening. Um And then they said, okay, then we will break your water and start with the if nothing happens after the water break, then we will start with this trip of uh synthetic oxytocin. Um so at around, I think, in the in the beginning of the morning, they broke my water. Um, then they sent us off for uh two or three hours to have breakfast and so on, and then we came back in the birth suite already. Um and there it was a really nice environment, I have to say. So the hospital was one of the biggest hospitals in Denmark, so it it was the one where all the complicated cases would go. Um, but still they had these birthrooms with the dim lights, there was lights of different colors, there was a big bed in which one could stay, and also yeah, different things, so it really was cozy. Um this was somehow of a relief to me because secretly I was hoping to have a natural birth with not so much intervention, and um, I was somehow scared of epidural, of not being in control, and so on. And um, and this I I said, I think at the midwife, we she did an interview in the beginning before setting up the drip, and then we did this. I I told her, and she was yeah, of course, of course. Uh we try to to do as it comes. Uh it's good that you have a plan, blah blah. Um so then uh since the water didn't do much, I didn't feel any contractions afterwards, then they they they set up this trip. Um, and I think it was quite quick until it started to work, and it was quite um from zero to not hundred but eighty, so quite strong sensations and um yeah, um, it was nothing really unusual because to me, both times it really felt as uh menstrual cramps, like the same uh feeling, but really, really strong. So that's that's how I feel contractions, and and this somehow was familiar, but it was yeah, the intensity was really, really strong. Um, and then I remember there was this um student midwife, um, and she stayed with me for a couple of hours, and she was really, really lovely, very helpful. And um I told her I did some uh yoga, they taught me how to breathe, and I was trying to breathe, and then she was inviting me to stay out of the bed, to stay on the ball, and to find the rhythm, so it was really good, and um and somehow it was working, but I think there I really felt overwhelmed by the emotion of being there. I mean, I don't know how to explain it. It was like so much anticipation to this moment um that I didn't allow myself to think about, and that suddenly I was there. So I I think, yeah, after a while, um I started crying, and I clearly remember I wasn't crying for the pain, I was crying more like as a release. Like I was in this moment, I really needed my nerve to calm down, and I needed this cry for my nerves to calm down. Then the other midwife, the main midwife, came back and she was um, I think she misunderstood it as I don't know, weakness, or I don't know, maybe she she cannot deal with the contractions, and I don't exactly know what she thought about it. Um, but basically then she started to be quite negative and manipulative about it, and this was basically what really set the stage for not such a positive birth experience there. Um, because what she told me uh basically she told me, I mean, you know, I didn't want it to tell you before, but um with induced labors usually are very intense, very painful, and most people don't cannot make it without the epidural. Um so I would uh really really advise you to take the epidural. Um, it will be much easier. Um, and because I as the state, as I've seen you, as I've seen you now, I I cannot expect that you can make it without it. So that's basically what she told me. Um and this, of course, was quite tough for me. Um because sorry, yes, yeah.

Christine: 25:50

Sorry, especially when you feel like you're actually you're coping fine, it's just this emotional release which comes to most people at some point, yeah.

Sara: 25:59

But yeah, she must have misread that and just yeah, either misread or she really wanted to have an easy day. I don't know. I mean, sometimes you really think I don't know. Um, so yeah, so basically she my husband came back, so he was at lunch, he came back and he was in this emergency situation for him. Um, and um yeah, then I I I trusted her and I was like, yeah, then okay. Uh if you think I you are the expert, if you think I cannot make it, then uh let's do it. Um so then uh I think after I don't know, one hour or so. So after two or three hours that the contraction started, the anesthesiologist came and um it did this epidural, and um then bad things start to happen because basically this epidural didn't really work. And of course, when you set your head about something, yeah, this is coming, okay. I can I will have this, and then this doesn't work, it it's really hard. It's really hard because you are like I want it the other way, and now you force me into this way, and still I need to cope with it. And I was really disappointed and uh angry, and uh yeah, and the the worst thing I think for me was really to be stuck in that bed, like yeah, in in which way didn't it work?

Julia: 27:39

Because it can fail in different ways, right?

Sara: 27:44

Um, so in my case, it was uh that on one side it was um numb and on the other side not. Oh my god, so I could only feel on the right side and not on the left side. Um, and I think the only thing that they tried was to turn me a little bit and to basically give me additional bullets. So they would say, yeah, it doesn't work. Okay, we give you some more. Okay, we give you some more. Whereas now I know from other birth stories I've heard and experienced a little bit that um you can actually ask it to be redone because sometimes it's not inserted correctly, and that's why yeah, doesn't work, but somehow there it didn't occur to them or whatever. So then uh yeah, I was stuck with this a little bit. Um, and I mean it was working a bit on one side, but still also in my birth report, it was clearly saying she still needs to breathe through contractions, and uh yeah, but yeah, I couldn't really relax. So it was a failed epidural, yeah, yeah, basically, yes. Um, and then uh things got got a bit confusing. I mean, I don't remember exactly, but I think they did try, I don't know, to empty my bladder to do things, and um things didn't go so much better, but the labor progressed quite fast because I think around six or something in the evening I was already dilated completely. Um and then I think there was the midwife shift, so they changed after two hours, then I started pushing. So they let me there for for a little bit, and um then before the pushing, they somehow realized that the baby was not really well positioned or something. So I remember they made us me and my husband do a what it seems at the time a bit crazy position is this spinning baby side release. So you really are have to be on the side of the bed and put your leg down. And uh my husband needed to hold my whole weight, and it was a bit scary, but I think it is done because when they really see that yeah, the position of the baby is not correct. Um, and then I remember they told me to try pushing, and um, I think there mentally I kind of went in transition because I I remember I was really like thinking no, I don't want to be here, I want to go home. I I don't want this. I was I was holding it back. I I didn't put my all have effort because my mind was simply like I don't want this now. Um but then uh somehow it shifts, and uh you can yeah, somehow I I got on the game again, and uh I remember it was uh quite an effort, but um it was not super long because it was like 40 minutes of pushing, and then she was out basically. Um and I remember her flying out with these open arms like a little bird, and then they put her on my chest immediately, and uh it was such a surreal moment. It's somehow she felt so heavy in a way, even if you have like you have them in your belly for so long and you don't realize, and then they suddenly when they are on you, it's so real, you feel them, you feel them in a different way. Um, so yeah, that moment I think it's was the best, I think ever. Yeah. Wow. Um so for this, it was really positive.

Julia: 31:58

So it was that evening, so you were induced in the morning. Is that right? And then in the evening she was born, she was there. Yeah. Um, what were those first few hours like postpartum with her?

Sara: 32:13

Yeah, so she was um quite active, so she ended up being quite big, she was really 4.2 kilos, like the ultrasound cut. So I guess she was also quite hungry. I don't know, but she she was immediately starting breastfeeding. Like they I remember they left her on on my chest the whole time during delivery of the placenta, and uh and then I also had to be stitched up and so on. Um, and yeah, she was she was active, and uh she basically got to the breastfeeding to the latching herself. I didn't have to do anything. I remember I was just holding her, and then suddenly I felt someone off me latching. She knew it's she knew it, yeah.

Christine: 33:08

I love that image that she's coming out with open arms and she just makes her way and no exactly.

Julia: 33:15

Yeah, I mean, she was she was born after her estimated duty, and this is like this is a baby who was ready and like fully able to engage with this world. She's throwing her arms out, she's like, Yes, I've been meaning to do this for so long, and can immediately latch.

Sara: 33:31

I mean that yeah, yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, yeah, we sometimes when my husband we joke and we said we never had this newborn face, she was immediately so ready.

Christine: 33:43

I'll show you how it's done, mom. Yeah, exactly. Hi, I'm Christina, Adula, baby wearing consultant, childbirth educator, and mother of three. I'm the owner of Lily Bee, a family hub in Zurich where you can find resources, community, and support in English as you begin your journey into parenthood. It takes a village. Find yours here.

Sara: 34:13

Yeah, so then then it was nice, and uh yeah, they left us there, and then but then the in Denmark it works that you only can stay one night in a patient hotel, they call it so where they you can stay with your husband, but um the midwives only come like twice a day, and yeah, it's very hands-off, and then they send you home and you you can have people come into your place, um, sort of a more of a nurse than a midwife, um, and they monitor you the feedings and so on. So, in that way, it works similarly that in Switzerland, I would say. Yeah, um, yeah, and uh yeah, there uh the postpartum was not easy because we had quite some difficulties also with the feeding. So, first of all, I had some difficulties with the birth um healing because I had a third degree tear. Um, so they were advising me in the beginning not to be seated up, not to be upright for so long and so forth. And then, of course, they tell you you cannot sleep with your baby, and you cannot, so it's so much information that is actually unfeasible when you're in this healing phase, and with a newborn that doesn't sleep well, if not basically attached to humans. So, I think it was quite difficult for both me and my husband to find the rhythm and find the courage just to say, you know, let's try our way and let's trust ourselves in this baby. Um, so I think that that yeah, that was a huge learning curve. And and for the feeding, um she and also my also my son, I guess us, we have uh she has she had a tongue tie, so but but this was diagnosed much later because uh we had this difficult journey in the beginning, so yeah, it was a lot of we had to supplement a little bit in the beginning, then uh different lactation consultant and so on, and we tried different methods because basically I I was it was very painful for me. Um, and I think it was around three months that things started to normalize, and I was kind of feeling that this was okay again, but but yeah, but I was very grateful that we found very supportive lactation consultants and very informed ones. Um and for that we could basically go back to exclusive breastfeeding, and and this I'm very grateful for because I think the mixed feeding it's it's uh demanding, it's quite demanding, yeah.

Christine: 37:34

Yeah, that's exhausting. Yeah, um what about your second? How how did that compare or how did that go? You were in a different country for starters, yeah, yeah.

Sara: 37:45

Definitely, yeah. I was in Switzerland and somehow more familiar because I was um basically in the same uh clinic. I have my general doctor for I had also found uh an obstetrician and she was speaking Italian, so it was very it was very nice, and um and then the with Julio, it was more it was we decided, and then it came and it was more straightforward, everything. And and Olympia, we we decided with the move and so on of countries, we decided to wait, or basically, we never thought about having a second before Olympia was two and a half, so so yeah, then then she was already more independent, and it was also easier the pregnancy compared to maybe when you have a short a smaller age gap because she she was already quite independent, and um yeah, and here of course I was followed by the obstetrician uh for my whole pregnancy. Um, she was very understanding. I told her immediately my story in Denmark, and of course, I told her that she was big, and I told her that I had a tear, and then this, of course, rings bells in doctors, and uh yeah. So I'm since the beginning, she was like, Yeah, I understand your story, but maybe you she was very respectful. She said, You need to know there are there are you will have the options to choose for a cesarean because you had this big tear, and usually when you have a big tear, it's uh more probable that you will have it again. Um, and also she will she told me probably what happened there is that you may have had diabetes that was undiagnosed because you didn't have any risk factor. For it, they wouldn't screen, but here we screen everyone, so that's what I recommend that we keep an eye on the growth of the baby more closely and so on and so forth. And I was like, yeah, I mean, that sounds reasonable to me. Um, and I think at that time I didn't really yet process my first birth completely. Um because somehow like it was not the one that I thought, and it it was I kind of had to endure things that I thought I didn't want to endure, but it also had positive aspects, so I it never came to me that I could have things inside me that I was hiding basically. Um and then when I was pregnant of three or four months, um, I think I I went across in Facebook um like a message from a yoga teacher and childbirth educator in the French part, and she was offering a trial for a birth preparation course with her. Um, so then I said, why not? I will try it. Um, and this was really, really, really nice. Um, so we were only two months. We would have this Zoom calling where in the beginning we would just chat about our pregnancy, about our previous birth, about our fears, about what we would like to have in our next birth. And it was very open, and and she was such a positive energy and such a positive women, woman. And I and there is it was when I realized that this first birth experience was really traumatic for me, and I didn't want to do it again at all, like this. Um, and it was traumatic because I was really I felt like I was manipulated into doing something I didn't want to do, and I couldn't say no, basically, even if I could, but in that moment it felt like I couldn't. Um yeah, and then yeah, in the same course, we she gave us a lot of inputs, like different techniques that one could use. Um, she was teaching yoga, so we would do a little bit of yoga, and she was also teaching suffrology, that is sort of a way of meditation, sort of a meditation technique. And then she was um telling about her experience. Uh, she she has she had hypnobirthing, so she was giving us some YouTube video to watch, and so it was full of resources and um and it opened up this world of yeah, one could one could look for different yeah, for different stories, different information. And of course, she was like, it's good to to listen and watch positive stories, um, because your brain really is feeding on them, it's feeding on positive informations and associates that moment to a positive thing, that pain to a positive sensation and not to something to avoid. Um, and that was really useful. So um, yes, after that I I devour a book about hypnobirth. Um, and uh I found it really useful also scientifically because I never really reflected on what happens in the body during labor, and in that book there was also quite some of this information, and how the contraction changes in the different stages of labor, and how the hormones change, and how by breathing you can bring more oxygen to the muscle, and muscles don't hurt that much when they have more oxygen, and this made so much sense. I was like, oh yes, I mean, of course you need to be relaxed. It's it's like when you tense up, everything hurts, and when you are relaxed, things go yeah, go more smoothly. So this was really, really useful. Yes.

Christine: 45:01

Well, it's nice that you had that resource, and it sounds like it's a such a holistic, there's different bits that you can kind of cling on to and and see which part is helpful for you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I also think it's really interesting what you said about realizing that you've had trauma, because I think we have a kind of an idea of what birth trauma is, and if you didn't have the you know, a cesarean, or if you didn't have certain things happen in your birth, then or if not all of it was terrible, then you might not think that it is a traumatic experience until you really reflect on it.

Sara: 45:37

So it's really yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I also yeah, somehow I turn it, then then I turn it into I don't want to do anything like this anymore, so I went completely the other side, and that's when I I look for uh something that was not so medically driven, since I I already knew that the pregnancy was medically driven in more in Switzerland, and it this was okay for me, I have to say, but I I just wanted to steer clear from hospitals basically for the birth, or at least from big hospitals somehow, because yeah, and then that's why I started to inform myself about uh doulas and about birth houses and what is available here, and then I found that there is a great geburts house in Zurich, and I applied for it. Um and unfortunately, in the beginning, I think it was already too late because you need to really decide in your first trimester, otherwise, it gets books out, booked out, and I think I was 20 weeks or something. Um, and uh, but then eventually they called me that some spot freed. So I think around the beginning of my third trimester, then I was referred to the birthhouse, and then also I found Christine as my doula, and uh we started to meet up and to yeah, to exchange information, and it was really nice to have someone that knew me and knew what I wanted. I mean, of course, my husband is uh was always a great sport, but he he's always on my side, like he always looks for me and sustain me, but it's different to have someone external that validates your thought and validates your feelings, and it gives you a different strength, I think.

Julia: 47:49

Yeah, um, so then how did you experience labor? Did you go into spontaneous labor this time?

Sara: 47:58

No, unfortunately not also there, it was a big journey. I um I was um overdue, and I was um seen by the midwife at the gebutz house, and we tried whatever you can think of for inducing naturally um uh the acupuncture, and I tried um dates, raspberry leaf tea, and so on and so forth, and um and we tried stretch and sweeps, enemas, everything, and unfortunately nothing worked. Um, and I was and the different things this time around is that since one month before my due date, my the Brextonics were starting to be painful some evenings and start to get somewhere, and then basically they would stop, and then I wake up again the next day, and it was again normal, and then so I had a lot of this start and stop attempt and never led anywhere. And then we decided to monitor after my due date, and it came, I think, uh one week after, um, where I where they had to to check me at Triumli at the hospital and uh also give me an ultrasound. Um and there, unfortunately, they saw that basically I didn't have any liquid anymore, any amniotic fluid anymore. Um, and somehow that day I had a few drops, I think, at some point when I was going to the bathroom. So then I told them, and then they were like, maybe your water broke and you didn't realize. So they did a test and uh it was positive. So then basically, when it's positive, they put you on a clock, they are like you have 24 to maximum 48 hours to give birth. Um, but I think Trimli and the Geburtsouse they work quite well together. Um, and then if you belong to the geburts house, they are a bit more like let's let them deal with it in the beginning. So the next day I went there to the geburts house, and again they monitored me, they they kept me there and trying to induce uh with natural um um ways like acupuncture, and I remember I was um using the breast pump for pumping. Um but unfortunately that was not really really working. Um and then that evening, so it was one day basically after the midwife said, Look, I'm sorry, but I think we need to refer you to the hospital. I know you you you don't want the hospital, but that's the only that's the only way we have. Um so then, yeah, of course I agreed, and we went to in the in the hospital in the hospital that evening. Um and there I think I was so lucky that I met such an angel midwife that really listened to me, and she was also like, you shouldn't have endured that experience the first time. I mean, now we will make sure that you you will be taken care of and you will have a very nice person, that was so so useful, like so precious for me. I I really yeah, it changed perspective basically.

Christine: 52:06

Yeah. That's at both births. There's a midwife that said something that really stuck, and it the power of words, especially man.

Sara: 52:16

Yes, I think yeah, it's so important that the team that you have at the birth, the energy that they have and the way that they speak to the women, because you are in such a in such a fragile and sensitive state that you really need people that cheer you up and support and push you in the right way.

Julia: 52:40

I don't know how to say, but yeah, I think in birth you're really you're really open and you're open to the you're open to threats. I think this is sort of really deep in our evolutionary, like in our brain, that we're open to threats and that and that if we if we meet someone who's hostile, if they say something, not even hostile, if they if they if they say something that doesn't make you feel safe, you will not feel safe. And your your rational brain cannot override that part of your brain that feels threatened.

Speaker 3: 53:12

Yeah.

Julia: 53:13

Um, and the same is true of the opposite, right? Of someone who lets you really know you are safe and not just tell you you're safe, but really let you know that you are safe, you feel safe. That is that is a game changer. Yeah, definitely. Um, when did Christina join you? Your doula, when did your doula Christina join you?

Sara: 53:36

So basically the the day after, because that evening, that was in the evening, it was around, I don't know, nine o'clock, and then again um we had a bit of a situation with the doctors because we so we had to decide which way to go for with the induction, and that uh the angel midwife we spoke and we were we had a plan, and she said, You are open already, it's two or two three centimeters, very soft, you are ripe, you are nearly in the process. So I think you could go, we could even try with a with a midwife cocktail so it can slide. Yeah, and they offer it at Trimley, or if it comes to medication, I think it's um you can go with the same as last time, so you know how it works, you know what to expect, and it can be taken off basically. So the drip, the the advantage of the drip is that when it's closed, after two minutes, the effect stops, so it's complete reversible. Um, but then when the doctor came, somehow they wanted to set me up on this mesoprostol. So these are um tablets that one can take orally by mouse, and um the it's true that they are very effective in inducing labor, but it's also true that there have been instances in which it was reported to be difficult to stop if it gives too much contractions, basically. So the risk is that it stimulates too many contractions, and then it's difficult to stop, and then what you need to do is take other medications to stop it, but it's it's a difficult process. And this doctor wanted to sell me that there was an antidote, and I mean I'm a biologist, and I got so angry about this, and I remember I was calling Christina and was like, and this is what this happened, and I don't want this, and I was like, You're right, and blah blah blah, and then he came back and I told him, Look, this I don't want. If you want, you ripen my cervix with the same, but you don't give me orally this because I know it cannot stop, so please do something else. And then I think uh after some time it came with the overheads, and he was like, No, no, you're right, we do like you want, we do the the cocktail first, and then we so it it was a really nice experience that I could somehow really make my voice heard, you know. Yeah, I I I didn't want to follow this clinical protocol, and I was lucky that I knew a bit of things, and yeah, so I I I was in charge this time. I definitely felt in charge. You stood up for yourself, yeah. And uh then we we tried a labor cocktail. Unfortunately, it kind of worked in the night. I I got some contractions for an hour or so, um, but then it they faded off and I fell asleep basically.

Julia: 56:59

If anyone is listening and they've not heard the term uh midwife cocktail before or midwife's brew, um Sarah, do you do you want to tell us about what was in yours?

Sara: 57:08

Yeah, it's basically the castor oil, so ricinus, if someone doesn't know in the English, um, so it's um it's um chemical that makes uh the the intestine contract uneasy. So it was used as uh to to basically uh yeah release the intestine, and it was it's known since a long time that it also induces contractions because of this effect on the intestine. And basically they give they give a bit of it, and then in the uh they mix it with some uh nut paste and some apricot juice, and I think the whole thing makes the effect more smooth. That's what I understood about it. Um, but yeah, so to me they didn't it didn't fortunately do much um side effect, so I I didn't have to go to the bathroom several times or so on, so that was very lucky, but but it didn't stimulate the risk, is that it doesn't stimulate very um effective contractions, and that's what happened. So I felt the contractions, they were regular every two or three minutes, but they were doing nothing basically. Um, so yeah, then then in the morning we wake up. My husband was there fortunately because I had these episodes of contractions during the night, so he could come back, and uh then we call Christine, and then we started in the big um birth suite the the oxytocin again. Um and this time it didn't work in the beginning, so it was like one or two hours in which we were chatting, we were relaxed, and I had a bit of contractions, but not really a lot. Um, and fortunately I had again the angel midwife that had a repeated turn. So she was we were really trying to figure out ways to ways on the side to to enhance it, and then uh she gave me some homeopathic remedy and also yeah, some other things, and it still didn't work. And then at some point I just said, please try something like try to break my water. Maybe there is a bag of water that stops it, or something like this. So then she tried, and she told me, uh, I cannot do much. And uh it doesn't seem to be something, but after that it started somehow. Um so so it started again strong, strong and regular, like last time. Every three minutes I would have some. And fortunately, Christina received a few days earlier the tense machine, and uh she brought to me at the labor, and we installed it a bit before everything happened, and then I really found uh I had to find my routine. I knew I had the tools this time. Um I I knew I I needed to count the breathing. This helps me immensely to really know I need to count until four when I inhale, and I need to count until eight when I exhale. So I was really in my head concentrating on that, and then as soon as the contractions come, I would switch on this dance machine, and this somehow got me into this rhythm. And um I remember I was staying a bit leaning on the bed with the ball, and then again sitting on the ball, and I I just felt I had this rhythm that I could follow that was mine. I found it, and it was not something that anyone told me. I think it's so important that you need to learn yourself in this journey. You need to learn what works for you, you need to think what makes me relaxed, what makes me not stressed, what what works for me. And they can tell you you need to visualize, you need to meditate, and it may not work for you, it may work something completely different, but that's that's the key to really find out what works for you. Um, and then um yeah, I think it took two hours of this, and then at some point I just felt like I couldn't deal anymore. I couldn't deal. I was like, I couldn't switch on these tents, and it was becoming too much because it wasn't working. And the midwife then told me, Okay, then let's check you. And I was eight centimeters basically.

Julia: 1:02:31

Wow, that was fast.

Sara: 1:02:33

Yes.

Julia: 1:02:34

Once it got started, that was fast.

Sara: 1:02:36

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And um, and then the midwife also knew I wanted a water birth at the birthhouse, and she said, Okay, then let's let's uh let's fill the pool, and it was amazing. And uh I I I didn't imagine I could do that in a hospital. I mean, I I tried to find out early on if I could have even have a normal water birth, and it was somehow not really possible. And here I was, I was induced with a drip and the monitoring and everything, and then she was like, Yeah, well, let's try. So then I went in the pool, and um yeah, and I think there I was everything really strong again, and uh I was really uh just saying, I need to push, I need to push. Really, I I felt this urge at some point. Um, and she was like, Yeah, yeah, go ahead, try. And um they they basically let me try on my own pace, and it was not long, maybe 15 minutes of pushing, and he was out. Um, and I remember there was a doctor there, and she she just came in and just says, I'm I'm this and that, and then she just stood there watching nothing, she didn't interfere, say any word. They were just these two wonderful midwives encouraging me and there by me, and they were in charge, and this was amazing. Um, and I remember at some point, I mean, of course, I was afraid to tear again because it was not a nice experience. And um during pregnancy in the last stage, I used this epino. I don't know if people know what it is, it's an inflatable machine that you it trains your pelvic floor to basically stretch, but also to push, so you you sort of yeah, know what to expect. And this this I found it very helpful. And um during the pushing that the midwife just told me, really at some point, slow down, slow down, don't don't push it out now. And I remember that I could actually control this, like I remember this sensation of okay, this needs to stop, and it stopped, so it was really incredible. Um, and then the push after I like the contraction after I could push him out, and um yeah, and this time we I didn't have a single tear, so it was amazing.

Julia: 1:05:31

Wow, yeah, and uh yeah, that is um so he's out, he's in the water. You've you've caught him.

Sara: 1:05:44

The the midwife caught him and put him on to me, and then Christina had this amazing video that she sent to me of these first moments, and uh yeah, it's so emotional. I'm crying and talking to him, and uh it's it's such a precious memory and precious moment, and um yeah, I felt so like I I I could do anything, like I felt so empowered in that moment and and so joyful, and everything you can imagine, and yeah, it's it was wonderful, and uh yeah, and then basically they they made me go out of the water, and uh I delivered the placenta on the bed, and I could stay with him there, and um and he latched uh very soon after, also. And yeah, and this time I think I lost a bit more blood, so they weren't sure after the placenta delivery, so they weren't really sure also if all the placenta was out, so they recommended me to stay in the hospital that night, so that's why I stayed for one additional night, um, because otherwise the plan was also originally that I would go back to the birthhouse to do the Vokenbad.

Julia: 1:07:25

Julia here. It's my mission over at Happy Day to mentor and support you in creating a pregnancy, birth, and postpartum experience that is empowering, holistic, and uniquely tailored to your needs. Together, we'll uncover the tools and knowledge you need to thrive, with confidence, mindfulness, and self-compassion at the core of your journey. That's the reason why I offer my three Hallmark courses to parents in person in the Zurich area and online. They are Hypnobirthing Plus, Mindful Postpartum Preparation, and Hypnobirthing for Planned Caesarean Birth. Check out my website happydayhypnobirthing.ch or Instagram at happydaybumpsbabesbeyond for more details, useful content, and support. Now, on to this week's Swiss birth story.

Sara: 1:08:25

So after that, did you transfer back? Yes, so after one night I transferred back. And this first night was actually okay, and um they had to do quite some monitoring because I was diabetic a little bit, not enough to be declared as a sort of a high risk per se. But when you have the diagnosis and you are in the hospital, then afterwards they need to monitor the blood sugar of the baby. So after every every breastfeeding, they they tell you how much you should breastfeed, like you cannot breastfeed continuously. They say you need to do some poses, and then we will measure after the feeding what the sugar levels are, but fortunately it was all fine, and yeah, and then the next day we could go to Delphies, and it was a really good experience, yeah. The Wochenbit was nice, yes, very nice, and you have uh meals cooked for you every day, you have a private room, and and your husband can stay there, and it it feels like being at home but being pampered. So I think, especially for second-time moms and so on, it's the best because you're you have this unique time with your baby that at home you wouldn't have, and at the hospital you wouldn't be so yeah, so pampered, and in such a nice environment, and still you have the help of the midwives, not too much, just enough. And then the the good thing also with it is that the midwife that comes at home after it's one of the team of Delphies, so I knew her already before, and she was such a lovely lady, and yeah, it was really nice to have her coming home every day, and she was giving me massage belly massages, and it was really, really adorable, yeah.

Christine: 1:10:48

Yes. And what about the time like transitioning back home, kind of incorporating the new baby with Olympia? And how did that all work out?

Sara: 1:11:00

Yeah, so that um was yeah, what's easier in a way than imagine, like then also the first time was the second time you know what to expect, and I think that's a big change. I mean, of course, babies are different and and so on and so forth, but what you know is that everything is a phase, and that it's okay to do some things, like I don't know. Of course, like with Julia, I coslapped since the first moment. I mean, I knew what the safe way of doing was, but I didn't have any problem of doing it. So, and uh I wore him everywhere, and yeah, and I knew to it that if he was crying in the evening, it was normal. Um, so you you have much less stress on you, especially if you don't have a support system like most of expats face, right? Um so in that case it was easier, but of course, when you have two, there's the whole other um it's not a difficulty, but it's this extra layer of thinking, you need to think of the other child, and of course, there are initial reactions, and there is this love and initial love from the sibling, and then they realize that you're not with them anymore the whole time, and then of course they react, and uh it's uh you as a mom, you know, you need to be with the newborn, but you also need to be with your child, and it's and it's difficult, it's difficult to juggle all this. So it's you need to find the rhythm, and this takes some time. And I was lucky that um my mother-in-law was with me, but with was with us, so she lived with us for a few months after Julie was born, and that was really really amazing, and uh such a help, and uh yeah, and then there was the kita, so that made things easier a little bit. Um but yeah, one need to find the right way of dealing with the two, yes, and we had also the problem of a bit of the breastfeeding also this time. So, but since I already had the experience of the first time, I already knew I needed to go to the lactation consultant and so on. So this time we ended up um releasing the tongue tie, um, and this was very, very helpful. So it changed our breastfeeding journey quite a lot.

Christine: 1:14:04

Yeah, it does help when you have those things already on your radar to look out for, and then a matter of doing it instead of going through.

Sara: 1:14:14

Yeah, definitely. And and I mean it's such a pity that one needs to experience it the hard way the first time, right? Then the second time, of course, things are easier because you know you know what to deal with, and but the first time, yeah. Somehow I remember also the first time I was so uh angry at my friends that had kids and never told me what this meant. I remember this morning, I was like, why didn't they tell me I need to tell them off? Because I mean, come on, that's such a life-changing thing, and yeah, no one really talked about to me before. Yeah, but yeah, of course, it's one of the most amazing change, but it's it has all this emotion, wild emotion combined. So yeah.

Julia: 1:15:09

That's why I'm so happy that you and moms, other moms are telling us at least about a part of their story.

Speaker 3: 1:15:16

Yeah.

Julia: 1:15:17

So that there's a little bit less of the, I mean, you'll never no one can ever know until they're in it, like this change, this transformation. You you cannot you can't prepare logically for it, right? Like you can't prepare with just facts and stories. There's um there's a whole other uh way of preparing out there, but also there's an unknown. Um, but just sharing stories like this, I think, is um so valuable for some of those practical things, like, oh, why didn't anyone tell me? It's like, oh okay, now I've been told, you know.

Sara: 1:15:48

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, exactly. You know, that's what like which resources to look for, and that they exist, especially. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:16:01

Yeah.

Julia: 1:16:03

Um, Sarah, I'm looking at our time, and unfortunately, we're gonna have to reach the end. But before we go, uh, we have a question for you that we ask everyone, and it's a it's a difficult question. Um, and it is in this whole uh journey of motherhood, uh becoming a mother, how what was your most brilliant moment?

Sara: 1:16:33

It's difficult to answer, but it's somehow easy. Like it's more of a moment. I also would will reply it's more of a rediscovery of emotions. Like for me, it's really this stomach feeling of love. I don't know that you have when you are a teenager and you have your first love, you have this stomach, and uh somehow you feel the ox, you feel the the love pouring into your veins, and and that's that's what you get again with the children. You you get again this amazing sensation of butterfly in your in your stomach when you when you see them and when you see them sleep and when they tell you that they love you, and it's so amazing. And that's what I I love of my motherhood experience that that you get this on a regular basis, is not is not anymore just you know when you fell in love once in a while. It's you're always in this in-love state somehow.

Christine: 1:17:51

Yeah. Love that description, it's very, very accurate.

Sara: 1:17:58

Yeah.

Christine: 1:17:59

Thank you so much, Zara, for for sharing your story with us.

Sara: 1:18:03

Thank you. Thank you so much for giving all the moms the space to a very important space to share their stories. Yeah.

Julia: 1:18:15

Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Swiss Birth Stories. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an inspiring birth story or expert insight. Your support means the world to us and helps this community grow. So please also take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach even more parents to be. Don't forget to share this episode with a friend or loved one who could benefit from it. And be sure to follow us on social media at SwissBirth Stories for even more tips, resources, and updates on upcoming podcast guests, courses, and events. We'd love to hear your thoughts, questions, and birth stories too. So feel free to DM us, fill out the form on our website, SwissBirthstories.com, or tag us in your posts. Until next time, keep sharing, keep learning, and keep connecting with each other.