S02E09 Joanna: Rethinking Authority, Confidence and Where We Give Birth. One Hospital Birth in Poland and One Home Birth in Switzerland.

Joanna is a small business owner living in Glarus with her family. She owns Moon and June, a non-alcoholic apertif made in Switzerland. Her resources are below this description. 

A decade can change everything. Joanna went from a fast-paced banking career and a midwife-led hospital birth in Poland to a slow, deliberate, deeply supported home water birth in the Swiss mountains—finding a new kind of confidence along the way. Her story threads through motherhood, blended family life, and the tension between authority and intuition, showing how respectful care and continuity with midwives can reshape not only labour but the whole arc of becoming a parent again.

We walk through the first birth’s quiet triumphs and the subtle harms of the “clock”—that moment when protocols override pace. Then we shift to Switzerland, where an English-speaking midwife, a birth pool, and careful postpartum planning set a different tone. When Joanna’s longtime OB condemned home birth with fear-based warnings, she didn’t debate; she re-centred. With a low-risk pregnancy, a known midwife duo, and a registered transfer plan, she turned down the noise and trusted what felt right for her body and baby.

The labour unfolds like a lesson in physiology and presence: waters leaking at home, a rainy walk, a Spike Lee movie, then the unmistakable climb. Warm water, skilled hands, and a steady voice—“You’re a strong woman”—help Joanna surrender to the urge to push. One surge, and her daughter is born into the pool. Postpartum shines too: daily midwife visits, an easy latch after past struggles, food prepped, visitors paused, and a blended family gently knitting together. The episode’s heartbeat is a simple metric of success: leaving birth more confident than when you began.

If you care about home birth in Switzerland, midwife-led care, respectful maternity care, older motherhood, postpartum planning, or the realities of blended families, this is the story for you. Listen, share with a friend who needs a grounded perspective on birth choices, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review to help more parents find their footing.

- instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/joanna_k_perry/

- website: https://www.moonandjune.ch/

Chapters

• 0:07 Meet Joanna And The Hosts
• 1:18 Family Dynamics And Age Gap Reflections
• 7:41 Two Pregnancies Ten Years Apart
• 18:21 First Birth In Poland: Midwife-Led Hospital
• 23:20 Pressure To Push And Memory Reframed
• 29:46 Considering Home Birth In Switzerland
• 35:18 Doctor Opposition And Holding Your Ground
• 45:50 Preparing For Home Birth And Due Date Passes
• 52:45 Labour Begins: Leaking Waters And Staying Home
• 56:30 Active Labour, Birth Pool, And Surrender
• 1:02:00 Water Birth At Home And Afterglow
• 1:05:35 Postpartum Support And Breastfeeding Wins
• 1:11:20 Blended Family Settles And Big Sister Moment

Transcript

Julia: 0:07

Hi, welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. I'm Julia Neal, mother, perinatal educator, hypnobirthing coach, and trainee doula.

Christine: 0:17

And I'm Christina Bliven. I'm a doula, baby wearing consultant, childbirth educator, and mother of three. Today's guest is Joanna, who used to be a banker and started her own business after the birth of her second daughter. She had her first daughter in Poland at the age of 27, and her second daughter 10 years later with her new partner in Switzerland. She talks about how the two pregnancies compared and how she was able to be more deliberate and present during her second pregnancy. While she had a generally positive experience with her first, she reflects on what could have gone better and how her search for a respectful birth experience brought her to the idea of home birth.

Julia: 0:58

Hi, Joanna. Thank you so much for coming onto Swiss Birth Stories today. We are so happy to have you here. Hi, hi Julia. Hi, Christine. Thanks so much. I'm really thrilled to be with you guys. Great. When uh before we begin, could we uh hear a little bit about you and your family?

Joanna: 1:18

Sure. Um, my name is Joanna. I'm originally Polish, but I left Poland when I was 19. So I pretty much spent most of my life living abroad. I'm a mom of two. Uh, my older daughter is 11 years old. She was born in Poland when I was 27. Um, and my younger daughter is um one, almost one and a half. And she was born in Switzerland at home. Um, we live with my Canadian husband uh in the canton of Glarus. So we left Zurich and we left the city during COVID, never came back, and we really enjoy our our life in the mountains. Um, I spent last 10 years uh working in banking in Zurich, but last year after the birth of my um second daughter and after my maternity leave, I decided I wanted to take a different path for myself. And I let go of my corporate job, and now I'm slowly building my own company.

Julia: 2:21

So it's been it's been a ride last year, I would say. Now it's such a small little one, building up a business is um uh just a massive undertaking. I think it's really interesting how you have this large range between your girls. So it really gives you such a different perspective, I think, on parenthood when you have that.

Joanna: 2:39

It does, it does. And I had a moment of panic when I was pregnant with my with my second one because I was like, okay, at some point I'm literally going to have a proper teenager and a toddler. And I was like, oh my goodness, I'm so screwed.

Julia: 2:54

Oh yeah.

Joanna: 2:56

You never think about like was down the lane, and I was like, oh, okay, so there's gonna be a time when she's like 14 and a and a four-year-old still with tantrums, you know. But um it's been interesting for me. I mean, obviously, they're they are very different in terms of temperament and and how they show up to the world, but it's been also interesting for me to compare how different I am as a mother, you know, at because when you think like between being 27 and 37, it's I think for so many of us, such a huge journey of self-discovery and kind of growing up and finally becoming an adult. So from that side, having that difference between now a baby and a preteen, um, it's uh I'm learning a lot.

Christine: 3:50

Definitely. That's really interesting, yeah. Because we are we aren't really the same mother, even if they were, you know, a year apart, but especially with that much time and and growth and learning in the team.

Joanna: 4:05

Yeah, you know, I also um so we separated with my uh my older daughter's dad when she was two years old. So for me, it took a long time to kind of be again in a position, find the right partner and be again in a position where, you know, let's go. Like I'm ready to have another baby. Now I'm kind of like, why did I wait so long? But I think on a certain level, we always know whether we're ready or not. So I definitely needed time to reset my life and um and venture into the wild journey of motherhood again.

Christine: 4:45

Yeah, that's a big decision.

Joanna: 4:47

Yes, yeah, it was definitely a big decision, but um I think what makes me really happy is um so initially my daughter was very, I would even say scared and kind of terrified of having the idea of a sibling. You know, she's been with me alone for so many years, and we've been a very tight unit, also because I was a single mom with her for a couple of years, um, when we still lived in the city. So with no one else around, you're kind of um, you know, us against the world. You know, that that's kind of the mentality when you're in in the trenches of being a single parent. So I think there were parts of that that were difficult because it I still think that kids are not really meant to be raised by one person. It's definitely a not even a, you know, if you cannot have a village, like at least you should have someone else kind of stepping in. Uh but she was so used to having the setup, just the two of us, it was already a little bit difficult to accept for her that there's my husband or my now husband or my partner showing up in our lives. But when she found out I was pregnant, I mean she was so freaked at the beginning. Like I would love to have a cute story where you know she would she was waiting for a sibling to come and everyone was excited, but she she definitely took a took a while to get used to that idea. But I think what what I started with, what I wanted to say is that she definitely grew so much into that role of being an older sister, and she's so excited, she's so pumped and so interested with you know in what what's going on with the baby? So also watching her go through that change has been so uh so touching and um so interesting.

Christine: 6:44

Yeah, that's a that's a really good point. It's a transformation for them as well. Yeah, and did your now husband come with kids as well? Yes, yes, that's been a transition.

Joanna: 6:56

Two boys um that are now 17 and um well, 18 and 16, so they're much older. They were also quite excited about having a baby sister coming to the world. Obviously, the age difference is huge and they're so independent now and they have their own thing going on. Uh, but you know, part of the reason why we moved out to the countryside, we also wanted to have more space because now with both of us working from home and four kids, it's it's a lot. So um yeah, we we have the I would say, how do you call it, like the patchwork family, right? So um my daughter lives with me almost all the time. Um, the boys come and go um either on a weekly basis or on a different schedule that um that works for them the best.

Christine: 7:48

Wow. Um yeah, so can you tell us about your pregnancy, pregnancies? What were those like? Were they very different?

Joanna: 8:01

Right. So um I think I first need to preface everything, and I'm sure there are women who kind of go back to pregnancy and motherhood um with a lot of recollection of what it was like. I guys, I forgot everything. I was like, I forgot, you know, the early pregnancy, I forgot the the newborn preparation. So sometimes, you know, it's also interesting for me to kind of see how our memory works because it's so difficult to remember myself in my first pregnancy. But I think generally I've had two very peaceful and um uncomplicated pregnancies. So I've been blessed that way that I didn't really have, other than I would say, the usual anxieties that you have as a mom to be that are always there, um, or at least in my experience, I think there's always a lot of uncertainty. And I think we've also heard so many things that could go wrong in a pregnancy or in during birth that it's really hard not to fall into certain anxieties. But when I look at my pregnancy specifically, I didn't really have a reason to be anxious or worried. Um, they both came to term. Um, they were born both healthy and happy with a different attitude and I think a different personality, but we can get to it later. Um so my um my first pregnancy, I um I was 27. So I think also because I was younger, in a way, I didn't notice my pregnancy so much, you know, because I was at a very different stage in my career. I just started working in a consulting company. I was like busy, busy, busy, still traveling, still being active. So from that perspective, I I don't really recall so much how I felt during my pregnancy. I know, I mean, I can now recite, you know, that happened and that happened, and I went to uh labor in after like 39 weeks, so everything went fine. But I think one of the differences between these pregnancies that happened 10 years apart was that in my second pregnancy, I first of all, I was pretty much sure that it's probably my last pregnancy. I mean, my husband is gonna listen to it, so like I think he's definitely done. I'm kind of like still whenever I talk about being a mom, like I'm probably done. But I, you know, I always leave the door a little bit open. But um, I I felt that it was probably my last pregnancy. I also had way more stability and peace in my life and in my relationship. So in a way, I felt I had way more headspace to kind of go a little bit more inward and notice stuff. So, in a way, that second pregnancy was much more um conscious and slower and more, I don't know if you can call it pregnancy deliberate, but I think I felt pregnant and I noticed how I felt way more than 10 years earlier.

Julia: 11:33

Did you feel like you were more sort of mentally and physically engaged in the pregnancy? Yes. And that I I wonder also if it's just also this sort of deepening into womanhood. Yes, you know, and with your first, there is so much new. And when you're 27, when you're when you are 27, you don't really realize how 27 you are, you know, like absolutely and you have heard that you're doing all the business so active, you're doing your yoga, you're doing yeah, cool, I'll run that 10k on the weekend. Like you kind of don't realize, and then when you're when you're 37, you can look back and be like, wow, I was like so 27.

Joanna: 12:12

I was such a baby, exactly. And I think I think that maturing into womanhood, I think that's exactly spot on. Um, and you know, and I was also very mixed in my second pregnancy because in Switzerland, I think, and and that's the part that I really enjoyed and loved about being pregnant later in Switzerland, that it's it's not a surprise to anyone that you're pregnant in your late 30s. It's to be expected, it's it's something people expect is completely normal. Like in a certain way, like back home in Poland, is like, oh, oh, 37, whoa, okay, you're brave, you know, it's like um, so so that however much I would like to rid myself of that narrative that you know I'm an older mom now, it was definitely there, especially at the beginning of my pregnancy. So I kind of thought, you know, I'm older, I might feel physically not so fit, I might get tired more. But actually, my experience was the opposite, that I felt way more stable in my life. I had way more um trust in who I was, who my partner was, how our family was, you know, my career was already kind of set. You know, I didn't have I didn't have to prove anything to anyone during my second pregnancy. You know, I wanted to take it easy, I took it easy. I wanted to, you know, finish work early and go to physio, I did that without a beep. You know, so so that's why I think also my um attitude and my thinking around you know age and pregnancy, that has definitely changed. Because I went from, oh, you know, probably my birth, my my my best childbearing years are behind me because I'm no longer in my 20s, early 30s. I went from that mentality to like, actually, this is the best time I could pick for having a baby.

Julia: 14:22

Wow, I love that. That is so insightful and and yeah, very true. And I'm sure women of any age when they listen to this will be like, yeah, okay, I I can see that. And yeah, I do I've heard this a lot about Switzerland with the a with um ages and how um most doctors don't really bat an eye until you're maybe have a four in front of your name and then in front of your numbers, and then maybe they might be, they might, you know, perk their ears up a little bit.

Joanna: 14:54

Yes. So I remember when I first um when I first um found out I was pregnant, I was speaking to my doctor and I was I think still 36. And I was like, oh, you know, are there any special tests? She was like, no, like you're healthy or 36, like not at all. So um, so that was that was quite um quite interesting for me to to experience pregnancy from with a different eye and with a different body and also with a different mindset. What I also saw was that it was somehow easier for me and more natural for me to take care of my body more during pregnancy. Um, I've had some challenges. I had sciatica in my second trimester, so that was really painful, and I had to do a lot of physio, but I also thought that it was a sign for me to slow down and take things easier with commuting and with sitting so much in the office. Um, but somehow also during these 10 years that set my pregnancy apart, I've done a lot of self-work. You know, I did therapy, I developed a really solid yoga practice. Um, so all those things that I've learned during these 10 years about myself, they definitely helped me to prepare for birth. And I would say they gave me the confidence in who I was, and we will get to it in a second, to go for a birth that was definitely aligned with what I wanted, not with what my doctor wanted, not with what my parents wanted, not with what my partner wanted. You know, I've I think I've had that confidence in myself, and I was able to listen to myself not only because the pregnancy was going well and uncomplicated, but also because I've done quite a lot of okay, I don't want to sound like too lofty about it. Like I don't want to call it self-discovery, but I think I knew myself way better at 36 or 37 than at 27. And I think that um self-knowledge definitely influenced and determined the choices I made around birth.

Julia: 17:49

Julia here. It's my mission over at Happy Day to mentor and support you in creating a pregnancy, birth, and postpartum experience that is empowering, holistic, and uniquely tailored to your needs. Together, we'll uncover the tools and knowledge you need to thrive, with confidence, mindfulness, and self-compassion at the core of your journey. That's the reason why I offer my three Hallmark courses to parents in person in the Zurich area and online. They are Hypnobirthing Plus, Mindful Postpartum Preparation, and Hypnobirthing for Planned Caesarean Birth. Check out my website, happydayhypnobirthing.ch or Instagram at happydaybumps babesbeyond for more details, useful content, and support. Now, on to this week's Swiss birth story.

Christine: 18:53

Yes.

Joanna: 18:54

Yeah. So I had my older daughter in Warsaw in a hospital. Um it was, I would say, one of the more or or pretty much the most enlightened, modern midwife-led hospital that I could go for. Um, so I only gave there was there were only two midwives present at my birth. Um, I only had uh I would say a short checkup with a doctor, but it was definitely midwife focused, and I chose that practice on purpose. Um it was a vagile natural birth that started after 39 weeks. Um, so everything kind of went by the book, in a sense, you know, I had contractions at home, I had a midwife arranged that I knew before, and that was so important for me, actually, in both cases. Somehow, for me, from the start, the idea that I would go to a hospital and give birth with someone I've never seen in my life, that was just mind-boggling. I was like, I can't. I need to sit in front of that person, sit in front of the midwife, get to know her. She needs to know my story, I need to know her, and then we can go. So I was lucky enough to be able to afford because I had to pay for it extra. It's not part of the regular system here that you can choose a midwife and call her up, and she comes when you're in labor. So that was something extra that I could afford and arrange beforehand. Um, so when my contraction started, we met at a hospital around midnight. She was with me entire time. So that was also something I would say that not many women in this system back home experience that they have the same midwife, you know, not going through shifts, but she stayed with me entire uh the entire time.

Julia: 21:02

Um, how how did you know that this was the model you wanted to go with as opposed to the mainstream hospital model?

Joanna: 21:15

I did um so I would say that it was more coincidental and not necessarily a fully conscious decision based off analysis and a lot of thinking. So I I did a yoga course, yoga for pregnant women, in the same hospital. And I was kind of used to that surrounding during my pregnancy. I met other moms who were much more informed about what options you could take. And then I realized, okay, I I I can I can do a little bit of research about other options, and the other options are basically that you go to a hospital, to an emergency room, and whoever is there is going to be your person. And that somehow didn't sit right with me. Um, so I knew the place, uh, I knew other women who were planning to give birth there. And I reached out to a couple of midwives, some of them were already fully booked. I remember I had a moment of panic. I was like, oh my goodness, like now that I know how where I want to give birth, like there's zero out of space. But I found I found my I found my person. Um it's funny because when you ask me like that, you know, I don't think it was a fully intellectual analysis-based decision. It just it just felt right, you know. So um, so I knew that that location felt right, that setup felt right, that I I had a good initial conversation with with the midwife, and she stayed with me those eight hours when I was in labor. The labor itself, I would say for most part, I was left alone in in a good way. You know, it could develop the surges and the contractions were coming at their own pace, everything was going well. What I definitely was not happy with, and it's funny because I only remember this years after I somehow blocked it off. I definitely felt pressured in the second phase of my labor when I um I was already fully dilated because I felt like that's when the procedure and the routine of a still a hospital kind of kicked in. And basically I was told, okay, now it's time to push. I was like, okay, but I but I don't really feel like I'm ready to push. Like, there's no urge, there's no um, I don't really feel my body is ready. Um, and that kind of pressure, gentle, respectful, but still pressure to um get going with the second phase and get going with pushing, that was definitely there. Um, so I found that phase of the labor quite stressful. And I felt like I was on the clock. You know, she mentioned, um, you know, if you don't give birth in two hours of pushing, we will have to call in the doctor. I was like, doctor, like what the heck? Like, why? I like I'm doing well. Everything, I like everything is going well. So I thoroughly did not enjoy that part of my labor. Honestly speaking, I forgot about it for years. Like, whenever people asked me about my labor up until recently, my my first delivery, I was like, it was perfect. It was perfect, unmedicated the way I wanted with a midwife, like everything went fine. And then I don't know, when I was, I think we will we will get to it in a second. When I was preparing for my second birth um with Stefania, I was doing a lot of reading and listening to these stories, and then I was like, oh yeah, that happened, and and that was kind of fucked up, you know. It was like, um, yeah, it wasn't really that natural, and it wasn't really that um, you know, easygoing and and um physiological as I would want to be. So I think it's also interesting to again look at how our memory works when it comes to pregnancy and delivery and and and labor. That somehow I think for me, this aspiration of having a birth that was respectful and and at going at its own pace, that aspiration was actually stronger than in reality when I was telling my first birth story, because I somehow got rid of those recollections. But nonetheless, um I would still, even with those pressures and even with you know, the um the feeling that I probably could have had more time and um get to the actual delivery at a different pace, I would still always refer to that birth as a positive experience. So I and and I think you guys know so much more about it, you know, what what is a positive experience when it comes to birth, but for me, I would define the positive experience as I came out of the hospital more confident that I than I went in, you know. And for me, obviously, you know, the healthy baby, the healthy mom, like that's that's a must, right? I mean, I I don't think anyone would call a um um, yeah, I I I think I think that's what you you would usually refer to as a as a positive and and good delivery. But for me, I I still think that I I came out of the hospital feeling more reassured in my powers as a woman, and that was good. So it was a perfect no, but it was still I think good enough. And that's I think sometimes everything we can wish for.

Christine: 27:35

I really like that definition. Coming out of birth more confident than you went in. That's yeah, sets you up well for for parenthood.

Joanna: 27:50

Absolutely, yes, and I think um I think we do such a huge disservice to women, you know, reducing the birth to purely to a purely medical experience. And I saw your post the other day about the birth trauma and how prevalent it is. I have quite a few friends who literally had such a horrible first birth experience that they ne they decided never to have kids again.

Julia: 28:23

And that just breaks my heart, you know. Yeah, this is really this is really common in in Switzerland, like in Switzerland where we can say so much good, which we have, we have so much good here, but good does not mean best, no, um, and good is only um in reference to what the rest of the world has. And if the rest of the world's standards for birth trauma and mental health and um are so low, then it's very easy to be good. Um, no, the the the birth trauma stats uh in in Switzerland are are awful. There's far too many women suffering on what should be one of the best, if not the best, days of their lives, and the day that affirms their strength, resilience, confidence, everything that you're talking about here that you experienced in your first birth, this shouldn't be the uh exception. This should be everyone's experience. Even if you do have interventions in your birth, you you should that that doesn't disqualify you from what exactly what you're feeling. Um, you can feel that with any birth situation, but it has a lot to do with how we feel our control is, how we are spoken to, how we're treated. Yeah. Um and uh yeah, thanks for bringing that up. And your your second your second birth in in Switzerland, how I guess you weren't super new in the country, but you were definitely new um living out in Glaris. Um, how did you get yourself connected enough to have to organize a home birth? Right. Okay, so.

Joanna: 30:00

So again, um, I'm not sure if it's gonna be disappointing or interesting, but again, it it was kind of I think uh science and fate and people coming my way rather than me doing a proper research again. Um, but let me share this story with you. So I found out I was pregnant when we came back from our wedding to Switzerland. So yeah, we had a wedding at the end of uh we got married at the end of July. And basically two weeks after I um or three weeks after I took a test and it was positive. So um it was it was an amazing start to um you know settle back after the holidays in in Switzerland. Um I already had my doctor that I knew for years in Zurich, so she was my first point of contact. Um, and we did the ultrasound, confirmed that there was a pregnancy, everything was going well. And then at some point she also gave me kind of a list of to-dos. Um and one of them was to find a midwife that would be coming to my house after the birth. So the kind of standard Swiss setup, which I have to say I love. The this whole idea that you have a midwife coming to you every day, that's golden, and I'll I'll come back to it in a second. So I started looking for a midwife, and I do speak some German, but I also knew that's not the time in my life where I want to kind of risk it of not being able to communicate clearly. So I definitely wanted to find an English-speaking midwife. Um, there were a couple of um midwives that had on their website that they speak English, and I came across um my midwife or the lady that turned out to be my midwife for the pregnancy, um, Rebecca. She lives very close to uh to us, so in the next village, and she's super fluent in English. So um that was, you know, she she even had a website in English, and I was like, oh, that's my person, I think. And I I look at her website, I look, I looked at her photos, you know, how she was describing birth, and I felt it was very much aligned with what I believe about birth and how I want to approach birth. So we were exchanging emails. I explained to her that we are both um going back to pregnancy and newborn days after such a long break. I mean, for my husband, it was like 15 years. So I was like, oh, maybe you know, we could meet up. Maybe we need like a refresh of um bathing the baby and um you know measuring contractions when they start. So I I wanted to have that connection with her already during my pregnancy. And then when she responded to my email, she was like, Okay, we can find that date, but I have to tell I have to tell you in advance that I'm now uh on duty for two home births, so I might have to cancel last minute. I was like, home births, like, huh. What like because up until that moment when I got that email, like not not a single thought, you know. I was pretty sure that was also like the direction that my my doctor kind of leaned me towards. She was like, Oh, you live in Glaris, it might be a fast delivery because you know it's your second one, uncomplicated pregnancy. So your default option would be a hospital in Glaris, which is like 15, 20 minutes away from where we live. Um, so up until that point, when I got that email, the idea of having a home birth hasn't really crossed my mind. And even when I saw that, I was like, I remember I paused for a second. I was thinking to myself, like, that's interesting. Like, do people do this? Like I was so ignorant. I I I definitely didn't um enter the pregnancy thinking that I was gonna have a home birth. So anyway, um, she came over, we met up. I had a really good thing about her. I think there are certain medical professionals, I think, especially midwives, that just have this strong, caring, empathetic presence where you just instantly feel safe around them. And that's how I felt with her. And back then, still out of I would say intellectual curiosity, I was like, So tell me more about home births. So she started explaining to me. She told me who she's working with as a kind of tandem. Um, and it was this super experienced midwife that is quite well known in the region um for home births. She's delivered. I I Googled her and then I saw an article like how many babies she's delivered uh throughout the years. So the idea, I think, was planted back then. And I then turned to my husband, I think, even on the same day, and I asked him, kind of, I I wanted to, you know, kind of test the waters a little bit. And I told him, like, oh, you know, Rebecca, she's doing home births. And then and then he was like, Oh, cool. My both half like my both uh half sisters were born at home. Like we could totally do that. I was like, what? I mean, first of all, I never knew his his half-sisters were were born at home, and they're much younger than him, so he's already left Canada or almost left Canada when they were born. But you know, for him, that was definitely like an option to consider, right? So now that we kind of both felt that it was an option to consider, um I had a follow-up conversation with Rebecca with my midwife. I definitely knew I was I wanted to be her patient and her client for the afterbirth care. But now we were like, hmm, okay, so what what would it take to for me to have a home birth? You know, like I would I would say back then I was still kind of at on this curiosity kind of hypothetical train. Um but with time and with each conversation, it became much more realistic. And it became kind of a solid option first in my head, and then also, I will come back to it in a second, in a conversation with my gynecologist. Um, one thing I would not recommend myself from those days is I still think it's incredibly hard to find reliable research and data about home births. So I tried. Um, and we can touch on it later if that's something you guys want to explore further, and I'm sure you know way more about it than me. I found reliable data from Canada and from the UK, at least in terms of like the sample size and what it um what it entailed in terms of um benefits and potential risks. But I feel there is a lot of very poor, poorly constructed data about home birth. So very quickly, I kind of realized I'm not going to find answers to my worries or excitement or plan. Like, internet is not going to help me because there is so much confusion, and the birth systems and and maternal health systems are so incredibly different. For example, in the US, where there was a very strong stance that I could read about, you know, against the home birth versus Netherlands or even the UK with NHS actually now, you know, promoting the home birth a little bit more. So I thought to myself, okay, I'm not going to find my answers or my arguments or my confidence out there on the internet, but I have to I have to look inward a little bit. And I don't want to focus on this little microcosm that we have at home and with our midwife. So that confidence kind of matured in me. I felt very good about the idea of a home birth. I was still early in my pregnancy. So as you guys know, you cannot really 100% plan a home birth so early on because you don't know how things are going to develop. But with every visit to my gynecologist, um I was getting more confident because things were progressing well. I was feeling great, so everything was going well. Then there came a point where with my doctor and Zurich, we had to talk about birth, my birth plan. So I was, I think even before that, I was quite clear that I wanted to have a an um a vaginal natural birth. And then I remember it was a rather awkward conversation. So I was still getting like you know, examines. So I'm sitting back and she's asking me, like, oh, have you thought about the hospital? And I said, Well, I'm looking at different options, and I'm thinking of a home birth. And at that moment, like the energy in the room just shifted, and she was like, That is the worst thing you can do for yourself and for your baby. I was like, Well, that conversation did not go well. Um, she was extremely um negative about the home birth. Literally, what I heard is um you could go for a how do you call it in English? Like the some uh it's not a hospital, but it's like um a birth house. Yeah, you could go for a birth house, but it's that's already a bad idea. But having a home birth is a terrible idea, and then of course, my favorite, then the litany, like what if you what if what if you start bleeding? You literally, she told me, you will never forget yourself for putting yourself and your baby in such a risk. Wow, yeah, so I wish I was a person that had enough confidence in my choices that I would not be wavered, but I was wavered and I was really shaken up.

Julia: 40:56

I called completely understandably, completely understandably.

Joanna: 40:59

I called my husband in tears and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. She's so against it. And you know, the thing is that now that I tell you a story, I see that it was a dogmatic, systematic rejection of a home birth. It was it had nothing to do with me, it had nothing to do with my pregnancy, it had nothing to do with the setup that I wanted to have. It was like, this is good, this is bad. That's it. So that definitely shook me up. And I think the tricky part for me was that outside of that conversation, she was a great doctor for me. Yeah, you said you had her for years. Yes, I've had her for years, and she was always really kind, spot on when it comes to any issues I had before, not related to pregnancy, caring, warm person. I had nothing back, only positive things to say about her. And somehow when I brought up the idea of a home birth as a hypothetical scenario, I didn't even come to her with like, oh, I'm having a home birth. It was like, you know, I'm measuring, like, I'm weighing my options here. It was like a complete, complete no. So I have to say it definitely shook me up for a little bit. Um I briefly considered changing my doctor, but to be honest, I had no idea where to go. I had no friend or anyone around me who went through a home birth and would find a supportive um OBGYN um in that kind of school of thought that home births are are a good option. So I stayed with her and I literally never spoke about my birth plan again. Um and I would say that from all the amazing experiences I've had during my pregnancy and my birth, that was probably the hardest part. How unwelcoming that decision was in the office of my doctor.

Christine: 43:24

Hi, I'm Christina, a doula, baby wearing consultant, childbirth educator, and mother of three. I'm the owner of Lily Bee, a family hub in Zurich where you can find resources, community, and support in English as you begin your journey into parenthood. It takes a village. Find yours here.

Joanna: 43:48

So I would I wasn't really sure who to find instead of her. Like on on all other aspects, I definitely trusted her, and she was very helpful and very supportive. So I thought to myself, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay here, I'm gonna stay with her. Clearly, I'm not bringing up the idea of a home birth again because you know the reaction was so strong that it didn't really leave room for a discussion. And I think that's also that's also a bit of a trap for pregnant women where we feel unqualified to have these discussions. Because when you're faced with this kind of statement, like homework is the worst option for you and your baby, and you will never for you you will never forget yourself, uh, forgive yourself. Um how do you respond to that? I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not a researcher, so I'm not going to go like I'm not going to prove to her with research papers and stats that it's not true. I'm not a practitioner, so I'm not going to tell her about all the amazing home births that I went through. Because so I think what I'm trying to say is that we kind of went from equals of two educated, self-aware modern women. During that conversation, I felt like, okay, I'm here at the bottom, like I'm a patient, I have no idea what's going on, what like what's the real world of giving birth? And she's a doctor that knows her shit. And that kind of left me really um confused and powerless and actually a little pissed. I was like, why, why? Like, why do you not even why do you not listen to me? Why do you just assume that you have all the answers? But anyway, I also don't want to focus too much on that because I do feel that although it was a difficult experience, it it didn't really change my course. So I cried a bit, I talked to my husband, and we moved on. I was like, you know what? I know what I'm I know what I want to do, and let I'm not going to bring it up anymore. I'm going to keep in touch with my midwife and see how it unfolds.

Christine: 46:22

That's not easy to do. It's not. It's not. It's not even, you know, her argument is not a strong, I'm a physician, let me tell you the research. It was emotional, which is yes, really, it's not playing fair.

Joanna: 46:36

It was like on principle, this is not right.

Christine: 46:39

Yeah.

Joanna: 46:40

Um, and I would also add that it wasn't easy, and I've had I had one more moment closer to birth where where I also felt similar pressures from the local hospital. And I'm gonna tell you that in a second. Um, it's not easy for me, it wasn't easy for me personally, and I think many women have this kind of I always go by the book. I've done everything, you know, I went to school, I went to university, I've done everything right, and I've always, you know, bowed down to all the authority figure figures that I had to respect, right? So for me, like even at the age of 37, for me to kind of be like, well, I'm not doing that, you know, you might be my doctor, but I'm doing something different, it was really tough. Um, because even if you know your truth and even if you're confident, hearing such words when you're carrying a baby, it definitely puts a seed of doubt in you. So my pregnancy continued, everything was going well. I decided to take things a little bit slower at the office because I was getting tired, I had sciatica, so I was working part-time uh towards the end. I kept in touch with my midwife Rebecca, we were seeing each other regularly, and then came a point where I think I had my last gynecologist appointment, and she kind of handed me over to the hospital. So she was like, Oh, you probably don't want to come to Zurich anymore. You know, next visit you're gonna have is gonna be at the hospital, and I was like, I just stayed quiet. I was like, I'm not going to the hospital, lady. I'm this is not happening. So in a way, I was kind of relieved because I was like, okay, so that was my last appointment there. I I didn't want to just skip all my appointments there because I think I didn't feel um I still wanted to have you know a doctor looking after my pregnancy. I honestly think if I went, if I became pregnant again, I would probably opt for a midwife care altogether. But that's something that again, I didn't really know was an option uh when I was pregnant. But that story kind of finished there. She recommended I have a checkup at the hospital. I came home, I already was on a break from working, and you know, like the end of the pregnancy. So with the kind of the waiting, the preparation, getting ready, speaking to my older daughter. I really kind of wanted to save her that time that we had still as the the only child. So we spent quite a lot of time walking and and shopping and and just hanging out. Um then my I think it was maybe a week before my due date, I was supposed to go to a hospital in Glaris. Um, I I think like on the formal side, even if you have a home birth, you still need to register for the for the hospital in case something happens and you need to be transferred. So I was registered and I was supposed to go there for a checkup. I only decided to have a checkup with my midwife. I had no interest in going to the hospital because I also felt not that I had strong reasons to feel that way, but I was still of an opinion that, you know, I would have to excuse myself and explain myself and give the reasons why I want to have a home birth. And frankly speaking, I was not in the headspace to have those conversations with anyone. So I stayed at home. My midwife was coming to me regularly for the checkups, um, everything was going well, and then my due date came and nothing happened. So then the other type of waiting starts where obviously everyone is asking and everyone is curious and you're getting messages. So that was a little intense because I was like, okay, like where are you? What's going on? I do think that my my my due date was not calculated 100% correct. I think it's it should have been a little bit later. Um do you remember when your first came as far as a few days before the due date? Yes. So I I was expecting the same with my second one, uh, but she was taking her sweet time. So I think I went um 10 days after my official due date that I had in my pregnancy chart. And I think by the time it was like seven, eight days, I was like, oh my goodness. And it's funny because it's hard to describe that mix of like impatience, excitement, and frustration that you you go through when you're overdue. Um, but I definitely felt supported by my midwife. She was super relaxed about it. She was like, easy, you know, no problem. Just do your thing, drink your tea. I ate a lot of dates and drank raspberry leaf tea and all the things that you're supposed to do. And then I remember she came for a checkup on a Friday, and my daughter was, my older daughter was going to her dad's for the weekend. So that didn't really happen that often back then. She she wanted to stay with me a lot, but we agreed that she was gonna go on Friday. And then Rebecca, my midwife, said to me, like, Oh, like if your older daughter is not here, probably you're gonna give birth this weekend. I was like, get out of here. Like, what, like, what, what, what difference does it make, you know? And funny enough, Friday afternoon, we were sitting at home with my older daughter and with our nanny that was still coming from time to time to to help out. And and I felt and I felt like I peed myself. I was like, what the heck, like what what's going on? So I went to the bathroom and I realized my waters were leaking. Like literally 15 minutes before she was supposed to go away for a weekend. So I was like, okay, I guess I guess things are moving. And then I don't know how to really describe my mental state on that day because I still felt my baby and my delivery was like days away from me. So I was like, Yeah, you know, I told my husband, um, I think my my waters are leaking, so I need to call the midwife. But I was like, Yeah, probably it can take still a couple of days. He was like, Really? A couple of days? Like, why? I was like, I don't know. Like, and I just feel it's gonna take a while. So I spoke to my midwife, she came over, she confirmed that it was my waters that were slowly dripping. She was quite convinced that things are gonna get going quite fast. I was not, I was I was very chilled. Um, and she suggested that we take it easy, that I eat something like quite hefty to um to fill my fill myself in with with food and with drinks, and that we kind of keep in touch. So of course my North American husband was like, we're going to Burger King. So I had all these healthy meals at home. I was like, okay, screw it. Okay, we're going to Burger King. You know, no other kids are here. It's just me and you. So we went to Burger King and I stuffed myself with food. Um we came back home. I felt a little bit of contractions, like maybe kind of menstrual cramps, but like nothing, nothing serious. So it was like, okay, you know, we go for a walk. It was the end of April and it was pouring and it was so cold. The weather was shit, but I was like, okay, I want to go for a walk. I wanna, I wanna move. Then we watched the movie. I remember he was like, let's watch a Spike Lee movie. It's like, okay, like, not that I had any interest in that movie or any headspace, was like, sure, let's watch a movie. And I remember towards the end of that movie, I felt things were really going. I started feeling like I went from oh, there's a little bit of tension in my belly to wow, I really have to breathe through it now. So we finished the movie, and by that time something interesting happened. I stood up from watching that movie, and I was so cold and shaky, and kind of agitated is not a good word, but I I felt something was shifting in me. And I don't know if it's some kind of hormones kicking in or labor progressing quite fast, but from that point onward, I definitely felt I was kind of detached from the outside. I mean, I was speaking to my husband and going through the motions, but I was kind of you know on planet labor and very much within myself. So I measured my contractions and they were like three minutes apart. I was like, okay, I think you have to call the midwives. My husband was very much, yeah, we have to call them now. I was still maybe we can still wait. He was like, No, we cannot wait. He started getting ready with the pool, and it was already, I think, past midnight. Um, the midwives came maybe half an hour later. Um, I only had one checkup, so they wanted to understand kind of where I was, um, how dilated I was, and I was already at like six, seven centimeters. Like, honestly, guys, I didn't even notice when it happened. I was going through these frequent contractions, but still moving, still very chill between the contractions. Um, and then that's something that my husband told me after. Like, Rebecca came to him and she was like, I think we need to hurry up with the pool. Like, she's she's she's going for it. So they were kind of working on you know putting the water in the pool. We had that set up in the living room. I remember my irrational fear was like, we need to lock the cat because what if the cat scratches the pool and it collapses in the living room? So so things were both very kind of spiritual and deep, but also very practical. And then um I remember the other midwife came, the the uh the one that I didn't know so well, uh, and she had such a calming presence that it was really touching. She was speaking to me between the contractions, and then when I had a contraction, she would just kind of gently put her hand on my lower back just to kind of put a little bit of pressure there, and it's such a small thing when you compare it to all these huge medical interventions that we can have to reduce labor pain, but it was so soothing, and I think having someone so calm next to me was amazing. So I did a lot of walking around, kind of pacing around the house. Then around I think one, they were ready with the pool. My goodness, then I went to the pool and I was like, this is like this is where I belong. Like I want to live in the pool now. Um, so the water was quite warm and it felt so good and soothing. And I think for a moment, kind of my labor slowed down a little bit when I get went to the pool, but then it really hit me back. And by that time, those contractions were strong, and I it's funny to describe it. I I had a moment when almost on an intellectual level, I felt okay, they're so strong, I really need to consciously kind of let go and ride that wave and not try to manage it because there's like there's no managing now. It's just like the The pure process is taking me over, and these waves are so strong. I just need to surrender. And I tried a couple of positions. I it took me a while to kind of find the right body position and the pull to enter that final phase. And I still had that moment. And I don't know if it's it's this attitude I've had before that, you know, it's still so far away, and I still have so much time. I still had that moment when I was in the pool where, and I know that it's completely irrational. When I didn't feel 100% ready, I I don't even like where I kind of felt like, oh, I'm not sure if I can let go and like really go for it. Um so then I remember the older midwife, she grabbed me by the hand and she looked me in the eyes and she said, You're a strong woman, you got this, you can do it. Just go for it. I was like, Okay, you know what? I'm just gonna go for it. And I gave it like all I had. I pushed out my baby in one contraction, and that was it. She was born into the water. Uh, I think like I still remember like I can still feel like how how how strong I held my husband's hand, and she came out looking like my husband. I mean, I know everyone says it, but she was like, my literally first words when she was born, she was like, Oh my god, it's you. So she was born. Uh, she was a little bit tangled in the cord, uh, somehow like um under her armpits. So it took a moment for the midwife to untangle her, and then she brought her up and she put her on my chest, and that was it.

Julia: 1:02:16

Wow, I need a moment to come out of labor land for a minute. So beautiful.

Joanna: 1:02:23

Yeah, I mean, of course.

Julia: 1:02:27

No, I got emotional a few times now. I was I was wondering if your midwife had noticed your hesitancy. Like, yes, I think they both have like the expertise that they come and they bring to the birth base is the second nun. Yeah, uh, that is is amazing.

Joanna: 1:02:48

So I definitely feel both of them noticed that. And now that I think about it on some weird level, I think it's almost like you don't want to part with the baby. I I don't know. Like it's uh like there is like I felt in that pool, like for that split of a second, that there was something, there was something almost holding me back from just letting go and and and going for it. And yeah, I'm just becoming this super primal, you know, creature that just pushes the baby out.

Christine: 1:03:31

Yeah, so cool that she then gave you almost permission, or like yes, it sense that you say you can. Yes, and yeah, and then you did, yeah, and then I did.

Joanna: 1:03:42

Yeah, I'll I'll never forget that because it was so power powerful, and you know, coming back to what we what we said at the beginning, you know, about gaining confidence during birth, I feel so much stronger after that birth. And and I know that people might think like, oh, you know, it's it's just a birth, but I think it's such a pivotal moment for us as women. I definitely feel that a my ability to go against the medical recommendation that I received, and also having that experience on my terms and in my own home, it definitely shifted things in me and gave me so much more confidence and belief that we can do things on our terms, but it's tough and it's scary, and and I wish as women we felt less alone in those choices, but it's possible. Um what was postpartum like for you then with with your second right, so um it was very smooth in the sense of we were already in our home, and um, I think the good setup for our specific family was that we were um without all the other kids for the first two days. So we had a weekend to ourselves, and that weekend was really special because we could kind of bond with the baby, just the three of us. Um so she slept a lot during the first 24 hours. Um, my milk came very quickly, and unlike with my uh unlike my first um postpartum where I had huge issues with breastfeeding and with kind of getting started, this one just latched and I mean didn't stop breastfeeding for four weeks basically. Um so it was it was very sweet, and honestly, I could never imagine calling a postpartum a sweet period before because it I think with my older one, it was definitely more complicated. She had to get uh extra feeding in the hospital, or at least you know that's what they decided. So she got formula in the hospital that I think also didn't help with breastfeeding, and I had to pump a lot, so it it was complicated with the first pregnancy and with the first postpartum. So it was a very bumpy road. I also felt not just felt, but I I I know I know about it now because of that um extended pushing phase in my first delivery. I had issues with my pelvic floor, I didn't feel fit for months after that delivery. And with the home birth, I think again, it's kind of many things kind of uh complementing each other. So I I came out of the birth in a better shape. Um, it was definitely easier on my body. Breastfeeding was much easier, but I also prepared much more for the postpartum. So I had a lot of food in my freezer, I had help from our nanny, and funny enough, I I didn't really invite anyone for the first two weeks. Like I that's also something that I learned is that I I put those boundaries in quite strongly, and I didn't really feel like having any guests for the first couple of weeks. Then I felt much better, but to start with, I I felt it was our time to bond and to just kind of get started.

Christine: 1:08:10

That's a good that's a big transition for any new family, but you have so many pieces to yours that your daughter needs to get to know the new thing.

Joanna: 1:08:19

And yeah, so I definitely felt we had to take our time. Um so it was it was very smooth, and I would say in the best possible way, uneventful. If you can ever call a postpartum phase uneventful, but it was um it was quite peaceful.

Christine: 1:08:40

That's wonderful. I love that. Peaceful is the is the word we can all hope to use for postpartum, but it's not always the case.

Joanna: 1:08:48

Absolutely. And then also with the with the home birth, you know, there is more midwife visits in the in the first few days. So I think on the next so uh the baby was born, I think, just before 3 a.m. And then she was already with us for a checkup the next morning, and then the next day in the afternoon. So I definitely felt cared for in those first few days, probably more than in a hospital, to be honest, because I had so much kind of one-on-one attention in my in the privacy of my own home. And then the kind of basic and standard baby checkup is done by the midwives, and I would say, I would say, I think three or four days after the birth, I took my baby to the pediatrician, like a local pediatrician. So she also had a checkup there, quite a thorough one. He was actually very chilled about the home birth, like no weird comments, no, no, no pressure. Um, so that was it, and our new family emerged, and I'm blessed with a happy, strong-willed baby daughter.

Christine: 1:10:14

That is an incredible story. Thank you so much for sharing.

Joanna: 1:10:18

Thank you guys. It's been an amazing way to really uh relive those moments.

Christine: 1:10:30

We do have one question before we let you go. Uh, and that is through through both of these births, through all these transitions, what would you say was your most brilliant moment?

Joanna: 1:10:49

I think my most brilliant moment was when my daughter, my older daughter, came home, uh, and she saw her baby sister, and I could see that she's gonna be fine. She's so tender with the baby, and that all the worries that she might have had about having a sibling, and all the worries that I might have had about having that complicated patchwork family, like we're gonna be fine, and we're we're doing it. I think that was my big moment.

Christine: 1:11:34

That is really beautiful. Thank you.

Julia: 1:11:36

Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you so much. That was wonderful. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Swiss Birth Stories. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an inspiring birth story or expert insight. Your support means the world to us and helps this community grow. So please also take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach even more parents to be. Don't forget to share this episode with a friend or loved one who could benefit from it. And be sure to follow us on social media at SwissBirth Stories for even more tips, resources, and updates on upcoming podcast guests, courses, and events. We'd love to hear your thoughts, questions, and birth stories too. So feel free to DM us, fill out the form on our website, SwissBirthstories.com, or tag us in your posts. Until next time, keep sharing, keep learning, and keep connecting with each other.