Swiss Birth Stories
Our mission is to share diverse birth stories from across Switzerland in a way that empowers the storyteller. We aim to create a supportive space where each person is in control of their own narrative. By recording and sharing birth stories in Switzerland, we hope to inspire those planning their own birth, offer insights for birth workers, or allow listeners to reflect on their own birth experiences. Tune in to hear real, personal, raw birth stories. Available on all major podcast platforms. This podcast is in seasons; during an active season, episodes will be released weekly.
Swiss Birth Stories
S02E02 Danielle: Finding a Way to Family- Two Births, One Birth Center to Hospital Transfer, One Birth Centre Water Birth
Danielle's resources are below this description
What happens when your carefully planned birth center delivery takes an unexpected turn? Danielle's journey from New York to Switzerland, and from birth house to hospital and back again, offers powerful lessons in resilience, informed decision-making, and finding peace when birth plans change.
Moving to Switzerland while pregnant after a long-distance relationship with her Swiss husband, Danielle set her sights on delivering at Delphy's birth house in Zurich. The birth center represented the perfect middle ground between her dream of a home birth and her husband's preference for a hospital. But when her water broke and labor stalled, midwives suspected her baby wasn't in an ideal position, leading to a transfer to Triemli Hospital.
There, Danielle discovered her daughter was in the challenging "stargazer" position—head down but face up. Despite medical recommendations for a cesarean, she advocated to continue with a vaginal birth a little longer. After a marathon labor spanning multiple days, she delivered her daughter, though the experience left her feeling both triumphant and somewhat defeated that her birth center plan hadn't materialized.
For her second pregnancy, Danielle returned to Delphy's with confidence gained from her first experience. This time, she enjoyed a peaceful water birth followed by four blissful days of postpartum care at the birth center—something she missed with her first delivery. She describes this postpartum period as "like a retreat" with dedicated midwives, chef-prepared meals, and precious time to bond with her newborn while her husband cared for their toddler.
Throughout both experiences, Danielle learned valuable lessons about standing her ground, being informed about all possibilities, and prioritizing postpartum recovery. Her story highlights how the Swiss maternity system offers integrated options where families can access both medical intervention when needed and gentle, supportive care throughout the childbearing year.
Have you considered a birth center for your delivery or postpartum stay? Even if you plan a hospital birth, Swiss birth houses welcome families for recovery afterward—a lesser-known option that's fully covered by insurance and offers exceptional support during those precious first days.
Danielle's resources:
Instagram: @littlelambsleepconsulting
Facebook: Little Lamb Sleep Consulting
Website: www.littlelambsleep.com
Email: info@littlelambsleep.com
Delphy's birth centre (in Zurich) website: https://www.delphys.ch/
Please connect with us! See below for how to contact and interact with us:
To share your story: https://www.happydayhypnobirthing.ch/swiss-birth-stories
All episodes:
https://swissbirthstories.buzzsprout.com
Our websites:
www.swissbirthstories.com
www.happydayhypnobirthing.ch
www.lilybee.ch
Instagram:
@swissbirthstories
@happy.day.bumps.babes.beyond
@lilybeezurich
Tiktok:
@swissbirthstories
Substack:
https://julianeale.substack.com/
Hi, welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. I'm Julia Neal, mother, perinatal educator, hypnobirthing coach and trainee doula.
Christine:And I'm Christina Bliven. I'm a doula, baby-wearing consultant, childbirth educator and mother of three. Today we're talking to Danielle. She planned to have her first daughter at Delphy's, a birthhouse in Zurich, but ended up transferring to Triemli when the midwives suspected her daughter was not in an ideal position. Her second daughter was born in the water at Delphy's, and they enjoyed a peaceful stay with delicious food. She talks about the lessons learned through her two births of standing your ground, being informed and setting your priorities.
Julia:Hi, danielle, it is so nice to have you here on the podcast. Hi, I'm happy to be here. Thanks, we'd love it if you could tell us a little bit about you and about your family.
Danielle:Okay, so I'm Danielle. I'm from Long Island, new York. I've been in Switzerland now for three and a half years. My husband is Swiss. We actually, him and I we met when we were traveling in Argentina, so we had a little bit of a cool story there and yeah, and then we were long distance for a while and then we decided like, okay, one of us has got to make a move sometime. So I decided to come here and I've been here for three and a half years and, yeah, I was a teacher back in the States, but now I'm here and I was already pregnant when I moved here, so I hadn't really started working. And now I have a sleep consulting business that I'm working from here in Switzerland.
Christine:Yeah, so maybe we can just start with how you guys decided to start a family, how that went, maybe how the pregnancy went.
Danielle:Okay, sure, yeah. So starting from the beginning, I guess, like we were long distance, as I mentioned, and we actually got married during COVID but still lived apart. So we were married and I was living in New York and he was living in Switzerland and we were just trying to decide when the right time was for one of us to make the move and who was making the move us to make the move and who was making the move. So then we kind of narrowed it down to I was making the move and I was going to come over here. I always knew I wanted to have kids. It was something that we discussed. I think he was more. He could have gone either way, I think at the beginning, like oh, maybe we'll have kids, maybe we won't, but I knew I wanted to have kids.
Danielle:So we started trying, which this is like difficult when you're living in different countries. So trying to time all that with you know, like when am I ovulating? When can we visit, when can we? You know it was a little bit, I guess, chaotic, planning that. I mean, anybody who's trying knows that it's hard to like try and plan that anyway. So, yeah, so we would plan trips around based on when, you know, I thought my fertile window was and stuff, and one of the times it worked, so, yeah, so we let me see.
Danielle:So at that time, yes, we were still living apart. And that's when I was like, ok, like now I'm pregnant, we really need to, like I don't want to go through a pregnancy by myself. So we had already decided that I was going to move here and we kind of just got that ball rolling a little bit more. And then, yeah, and then I had to resign from my job and then I came here and that's when yeah, so that's when the pregnancy started. I mean, I was pregnant when I was living in New York, but then when I got here, yeah, I had all of my maternal or prenatal prenatal care pretty much here in Switzerland.
Julia:Wow, that is so I can imagine that the sheer chaos of trying to, yeah, organize, seeing your husband, who you miss, but also thinking, but also thinking could we make it a week later? You make it a week before? Um, and yeah, that was covid still like, were lockdown still happening at the time or was it? Did covid come into any of these logistical issues?
Danielle:um, I think at the time, you know the the rules were always changing. It was like, I don't know, you had to have a test, or you had to be vaccinated, or you know, like there were like you had to show some proof of something that you were like okay, the good thing is, my husband is Swiss. He was born and raised here in Switzerland, but his father is American, so he also has a US passport. So when, even when things got tough, he was still always able to come to the US.
Julia:Oh, so lucky yeah yeah.
Danielle:So that was another thing that we were very fortunate with, and we, and then Switzerland this is just a side note during COVID, too, switzerland had something I don't know if a lot of people knew about it. It was called, like, the sweetheart visa that they and you had to like prove to the Swiss authorities that you were in a long-term relationship with this person, and then they allowed you to come in, even when lockdowns were going on. So we had this binder full of paperwork that showed we had an established relationship, and then they would let me in.
Julia:Photos of your two toothbrushes.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah, I mean, we had everything. We had screenshots of texts with dates, you know, going years back. We had like copies of like plane tickets and stuff that we had been visiting each other and yeah.
Julia:How romantic. We ask about how you experienced your pregnancy and pregnancies A very sort of boring question. But how was your health insurance situation then if you hadn't lived in Switzerland for the? I think the minimum is oh, I want to see a year before you can access maternity benefits, but I'm not 100% sure if that's it. So no one quote me on that. How? Was your insurance situation.
Danielle:So everything seemed to be pretty seamless. The only thing I think I encountered was because I was already pregnant when I got here. There were some benefits in our secondary insurance that I wasn't entitled to. I think we had some pretty nice benefits at the time like, for example, maybe like prenatal massage or a couple of nicer things in the secondary benefits and because I was already pregnant signing up for the insurance, I wasn't entitled to those. But other than that I didn't notice any kind of like there. I wasn't missing anything at all. My, you know, my insurance, my care, everything was perfect, great yeah.
Danielle:So, I was very lucky with that too. I mean, the care here has been excellent.
Julia:So, yes, so then let's talk about your pregnancy. How did, how did you feel in pregnancy? How did it go for you?
Danielle:I always said it, especially at the beginning, before I was showing if I didn't know I was pregnant, I wouldn't have known I was pregnant Before I was showing. I really had no symptoms, I felt healthy, I had energy. It was really really good. I was like I I do feel bad for it because I know a lot of people like suffer, especially at the beginning, but I didn't have sickness, I didn't have like like food aversions or anything and yeah, it just it was very comfortable and yeah, and, like I said, it took me a long time to show with the first pregnancy. So I really just like you know there are times you just kind of forget to like yeah, did you have a similar experience with your second?
Danielle:Yes, yeah, I think it must just have been like, I don't know, my body handles the pregnancy very well, because I didn't. I showed a lot sooner with my second, but I didn't really have many symptoms at all. So I was really lucky about that and I said like if I was 20 years younger I would be a surrogate, because pregnancy went really well for me and I loved it. I really did. I enjoyed that time yeah.
Christine:Really nice, too, if you're having to move internationally and organize all these things, and it's nice if you're not.
Danielle:Yes, yeah, yeah, because there was that international move in there.
Christine:And then you know, I still, you know I went back and forth a couple of times towearing consultant, childbirth educator and mother of three. I'm the owner of Lilybee, a family hub in Zurich where you can find resources, community and support in English as you begin your journey into parenthood. It takes a village. Find yours here.
Danielle:So then, yeah, I mean, continue on from there. Like, I found a gynecologist here. I had always dreamed of having a home birth. I thought that was like my ideal scenario. My husband was a little bit more cautious about that. He was like I don't know something goes wrong. And you know we want people around. And so I hadn't known about the birthing centers in Switzerland. He found I think he found one of them maybe it was Delphi's the first one he found and you know he showed it to me and I was like, oh, this looks perfect. It's like the perfect compromise because I wanted a home birth. He thought, you know, just standard hospital. And I looked at some of them online and I was like this looks really great, like I really want to do this. So we kind of then we started moving in that direction.
Danielle:So I stayed with my gynecologist for the majority of the pregnancy. Know, I think you can do all. I was at Delphi so you can do your checkups there. I think I was a little bit of an older pregnancy, so I fall into that like, I guess just because of age risk category, even though there was nothing going on that was risk for me, but I stayed with the doctor for that. I did get the impression the doctor was like not a big fan of me going to a birth center. She's wonderful, I really. I do like her. But I think maybe in her medical mind you know, she has a certain way of thinking too. I think maybe she thought, because I was older, too like that she, that I should be in a hospital setting. But I was, fortunate enough I didn't have any complications. I did all the prenatal testing. You know I did the NIPT, which was not covered here. I don't know the exact rules of when it's covered and when it's not, so I don't want to like say anything wrong.
Julia:But yeah, it's a combination of risk that they assess during an ultrasound around 12 weeks, plus plus other like maternal factors of risk. Switzerland has a low threshold for risk for when the NIPT is covered by insurance, but of course, if there are no risk factors then there's very unlikely it will be covered by insurance.
Danielle:Okay, so yeah. So then that was it. So it wasn't covered by insurance, but we just decided we, you know, we wanted peace of mind and so we did it anyway and you just had to pay for it out of pocket. But for me it was worth it to kind of have that peace of mind and just be more relaxed in the pregnancy too. I think my first pregnancy I was generally relaxed, I think. Going through it I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't. You know, I never heard of a nipped before, even like I didn't know a lot of things. So I think that kept me very happy, because I was thinking this like nothing can go wrong. Like if I don't know about it, it can't go wrong. So, yeah.
Danielle:So, as I said, I was with the doctor. I felt like I was, you know, considered fairly low risk. I didn't have high blood pressure, you know. I passed the sugar test. Everything was going fantastically. And then at some point I transferred my care to Delphi's towards the end. I think you have to transfer your care there by 36 or 37 weeks, I think it's 36. And they, you know, they follow you through the end of the pregnancy. You can go earlier than that. Like I said, they can do all your checkups too, but I so at some point I can't remember what week it was, but I did transfer over to Delphi's and I did my last series of like checkups there. And, yeah, so do I need to mention more about like the pregnancy?
Julia:I feel like I oh, I think, since we're on the topic of Delphies, you've had. You've had two babies, and it's not that I want to give any of your story away how did you then choose for your second child to go back to Delphies?
Danielle:OK, well, good question too, because I actually skipped some of this. So I did. I looked into Delphi's. We visited Delphi's and, oh gosh, the other one that I can't remember the name of, out in Barretville, the Geboorthaus Zürich Oberland. A great impression from both of them. I don't even know what it was that made me choose Delphi's, because I thought they were both great, like I really liked them both. But we did end up at Delphi's and then I had just a really great experience there with the care, all the midwives and you know, even though the actual birth, birth didn't end up happening there, I really just thought it was like a great place. So with my second pregnancy I said let me just for the sake of being informed, I went to tour the birth house at Vinterthur also.
Julia:Yeah, that one was newer when you were pregnant.
Danielle:Yeah, yes, and it was also. It was really nice, it was a great place, a very homey feel too. But I think in the end I just had an experience with Delphi's and I thought I would just continue there. But all of them that I visited seemed really, really nice. I you know I would, if I had to. I would go back to any of them. They were great places. But I think I kind of had like a little bit of a connection with Delphi's then by the second one and I just felt comfortable there and so we chose to go back there.
Julia:Great. And then in your labor, how did you, did you have a sense that things were starting, or how did you experience your early labor with Mila?
Danielle:So actually there was really there was no signs. I really just I was trying to stay like fit during the pregnancy so I would go jogging and stuff um throughout the pregnancy. As I said, I was feeling really good. I was probably like in better shape pregnant than yeah, than ever, and so like it was like a Friday, I think I I went for a run and you know I felt great, and then it was the weekend. I was due the following week, on the Thursday.
Danielle:So and then on Sunday my husband plays hockey and he had some kind of like tournament and I was like you know, we're four days out from the, you know the due date and you're going to be in this tournament where you're kind of like unreachable. I was like I don't know if it's such a good idea, like what if I go into labor and then I can't even get a hold of you because you're like on the hockey field or whatever they call it, the court, it's like the floor hockey, I'm not sure. So we made an arrangement where he went and his coach would hold his phone and if I called he was to be like pulled off. So Sunday came along, I was feeling good, I said go. I went for a walk Sunday morning, a long walk, and then in the evening him and I went for a walk together again, because it was August, the weather was nice, so still like no signs of labor. Still it was Sunday. I was, my due date was that Thursday. So still like no signs of labor. Still it was Sunday, my due date was that Thursday.
Danielle:And then Sunday night I woke up, just like randomly woke up in the night and because, being pregnant, you know, usually you have to like pee in the night at some point, and I was like, well, I just opened my eyes, let me just go pee anyway. And when I stood up, oh, okay, this is that was the only like. I didn't have anything during that day that led me to believe that I would be going into labor. It was just like random, like water breaking. So I kind of I woke my husband up, I was like I think my water broke and so I was very calm and we were just like, okay, I don't have any contractions. We kind of like went over in our heads like what the Gobert's house had told us to kind of look for and I was like, all right, water broke, but no contractions, let's.
Danielle:It was two o'clock in the morning. We were like, let's try and get some sleep and we'll call there in the morning. And I mean, I don't think I really went back to sleep but but I was kind of just like laying there and I'm like, all right, we'll wait until maybe eight o'clock is a reasonable hour to try and call them. So we did call them in the morning and they said maybe come in and we'll take a look at you and stuff. So I went in, maybe around like 1030 or so, and they were like it's not happening yet. I still really wasn't having contractions or anything. So they were like, okay, just relax, do what you got to do, take a shower and maybe go for a walk and stuff. So they said have a good meal because you know, if you go into labor it may be a little while before you eat again.
Danielle:So we came back home. It's easier the first time when you don't have like another kid to look after, so it was just us. Then we came back home, went to like a cute little Turkish place, had some lunch. It was nice. Actually, the woman at the restaurant I always remember too, because she was adorable woman and she, you know, she saw my big belly and she said, oh, like when are you having the baby? And I was like I think today. And she was like, oh, okay, so uh, yeah. We told her like, well, I'm kind of in labor, but, um, so yeah.
Julia:Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. I just can imagine that woman's reaction. She was not expecting.
Danielle:No, and then we did go back after we had the baby too and we showed her like we had her. Yeah, yeah.
Christine:I feel like that meal should be on the house.
Danielle:Yes, yeah, so, so, yes. So then we like walked around and stuff, and then then I was having contractions like more, like later on that day. So now this is like leading into Monday and still nothing. Really. You know, at some point we went back to the board's house and you know, just kind of said like all right, like I'm having some contractions, but nothing's like picking up. They were inconsistent, they weren't super intense, just like stuff was happening. And then, you know, they sent me back home and then that led into Tuesday. So now this has kind of been going on for a while. And then Tuesday, same thing. Like you know, not really sleeping because there are contractions. And then there also, you know, you're nervous, you're like, okay, when is this happening? I can't really fall asleep. So trying to sleep here and there. And then, I think at some point on Tuesday we did go to the Gabor test. I think it was just early in the morning and contractions were getting more intense. And so we went and we got settled into our room there Beautiful rooms, they're just like the.
Danielle:You know, it feels like you're just at home giving birth in your bed, like it's a full size bed, it's not a hospital bed and also nothing I say is like knocking hospitals. It just wasn't the experience that I wanted. I wanted to feel like I was at home, so it was. It was like a nice big bed that my husband could be in the bed with me, you know, and the lighting was really soft and then the room also had like the birthing tub in it Really just nice, or you know anything. You really needed a birthing ball those I don't even know what they're called, like the things that hang from the ceiling. They look like a really long scarf. Do they have a name? Slings? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that you can hold on to, so anything you'd really need during the birth.
Danielle:So, you know, after a while things still really weren't progressing that well. Nothing bad was happening. It just wasn't really like it had been a while too and it's also now at this point, a while without so much sleep. And I was in the bed and I liked I really liked the freedom of being able to move and to be able to be in different positions, and I had the room to do that. At some point I thought, ok, maybe I'll go into the water and that will help. So I did the big bath for like a water birth and that really wasn't really doing much. Still pain, but nothing really was like progressing.
Danielle:And then the pain got really intense and I was just like I don't and I wasn't dilating, like things weren't happening. But the pain was getting worse and at some point the midwives they assessed me and they had a feeling that the baby was just in a bad position and she wasn't coming down. And they were pretty certain of that and I don't know if a lot of people really at the birth house too. You don't just have an ultrasound machine there where they can check. You know they. You know they have heart monitors and things like that that they check the baby, but you can't just see exactly where the baby is, so it's all done, you know by hand. You can't just see exactly where the baby is, so it's all done, you know by hand. And the baby was a head down. She was in the head down position and you know what it seemed like, ready to go.
Danielle:But at some point the labor just got too long and too painful without anything really happening. So I remember like being there and like kind of laying there in pain. My husband was having a discussion with the midwife and they kind of not that they left me out of it. I was just kind of in my own world. They kind of talked about it and said like maybe at this point it's time to go to the hospital, and they said it's not. Wasn't that there was like this medical emergency that I had to be like whisked away to the hospital and like rushed out of there? But it wasn't. You know, even the midwife said like you could stay, but we don't know exactly what position the baby is in and we don't know how long this will last.
Danielle:And now it's been going on a long time and my pain levels were high and my exhaustion, I was just tired too, and you know it's hard to push a baby out. When you're really tired, it gets harder and harder. So I remember feeling like just deeply, like disappointed. It was my goal to have the baby there and I just felt like, like you know, I just felt like defeated, like this was what I really wanted. And now I'm. You know it's not going to happen, and you know then you know you also have like people in your ear who have told you like you're crazy for going to a birthing center anyway. You know, like I mean I come from the US, where that really is. I mean it exists, but it's very, it's not very common at all. So you know, I'm sure there were people who thought I was a little like nutty for going to a place like that.
Danielle:Anyway, you know there are people who think like, well, you have the medical care, use it. But for me, I didn't want birth to be treated like a medical episode. I wanted it to feel like, you know, like the start of a family, and so it was a really tough decision. It was really hard to accept that I was going to be taken to the hospital. But I think the care team, they were fantastic and, combined with my husband, who's also super supportive, like we all together we made the right decision. And yeah, and they, their transition was seamless.
Danielle:So, for anyone who's considering a birth at a birth house and this is like your concern, like what if I have to get transferred? For me I knew there was a process for it. I didn't look into it, it just wasn't in my mind. I wasn't, you know, I was like no, this is, I'm doing this at Delphi's, that's it. I never, you know, I never looked at what hospitals they. You know they transfer mainly to Tramley, but they'll take you to other places too. I never looked at any of those hospitals. I didn't. I don't even know if I knew their names at that point Because in my mind that wasn't happening. But I mean, I guess it was a lesson in just being prepared. So, yes, so they had they have. You know, they make a call and the, you know, the little ambulance comes over and they come take you and a midwife stays with you, which was nice for the transfer of care. One of the midwives from Delphi stayed with us for a while to get us set up and she also, you know, she talks to the midwives there and the nurses and stuff and she, you know, goes over, they go over everything together.
Danielle:So, as far as transferring, it was seamless, everything was, and it was very quick. You know, I don't even know how long the car ride was there, but it was very quick. I remember just, you know, being there and I remember being taken. Delphi's is in the middle of the city, so it's, you know, it's in a busy area, on a busy street. So, like you know, they took me downstairs and they had me like on the little like stretcher and they're putting me in the ambulance and I remember this guy on like his bike and he just like stopped and he's just watching me and just looking at me and I'm like okay, I'm kind of in a moment here, but I mean, I get it. People are curious, I guess, when something happens and oh wow yeah, that can.
Julia:That could probably pull you out of the moment, but luckily this midwife with you, but that is I imagine. I can imagine someone seeing this who's maybe never experienced birth or thought about birth and they're just like what's what's happening? Like what is this lady, you know? And um, and it's not an emergency, so the blue lights aren't going, it's not like you know this frenzied experience. It's sort of calm and he's probably like what's going on?
Danielle:yep he's just like looking, know, I wonder if he ever thought about it after that, like, oh, I wonder if she had that baby. But yeah, so seamless the transition. So when we got to Tramley, I also had fantastic midwives there, you know the little mask where you breathe in the air. What is that? Is it nitrous oxide? I don't know. I don't know, mike, is it Okay? I just was like, okay, I'll take it.
Danielle:It did not help. I'm sure it helped some people, but it really did nothing for me. And I also, you know, part of my idea of a plan was I didn't want an epidural either. But at this point again, the pain was intensifying, intensifying, and it was now. You know, we're into like later, tuesday, where this, you know, everything kind of started Sunday night, going into Monday. So it was really just a long time and I was like more and more worn down. They did have a doctor come in, they had an ultrasound tech come in too and try, and, you know, figure out where the baby was. So she was, she was head down, but she was face up. So she was, in English, like we call them, like sunny side up, and in there's a word, but it's a german word that I don't know how to pronounce what was it like?
Christine:your gay stars?
Danielle:the stargazer, yes yes, so that's what she was. Yeah, she was a stargazer and, um, you know, they were great with explaining it because I at first I just didn't understand. It was another thing I had never heard of with birth. And so they even had brought in like a little like pelvis model and they had a baby and they showed me, like exactly what was happening. So she was, you know, like kind of, you know, with her head arched face up and then also like hitting on my pelvis, so she wasn't coming down because, like, she was just like stuck on my pelvis and that's where a lot of the pain was coming from. Um, so, you know, they were able to see her on on the ultrasound and they, they showed me, they explained it to me and they, I have to say, they really did a good job with that because, like I said, I didn't understand any, I didn't know what that was. I mean, I knew like breach and then that you know, and regular, and I didn't even really, I guess at the time, know what regular meant. So, yeah, so they explained everything to me.
Danielle:The doctor said you know, there's a possibility you might need a C-section, and for me that was, you know, in my mind, nothing against like C-sections when you know they're medically necessary and stuff, but in my mind that was like my worst case scenario. I was just I was afraid to have surgery, I was afraid to be cut open, I was afraid of the recovery and I was like no, no, no, you know I don't want a C-section. And she said you can continue with this labor. She said but there's a possibility the baby will get stuck and then it'll be an emergency C-section. So if you don't opt to do it now, it could be a little bit more of an emergency later on. So I was like I don't know, I wasn't ready to give up At this point.
Danielle:They had also offered me the epidural and I took it because I was, you know, it was a long time and I just I couldn't handle it anymore. So I did take it. You know my husband says I was like a different person right after that epidural went in, like I was calm, I was able to have a meal too, because now again you're running on exhaustion, you haven't eaten and you know. So I was able to calm down for a while, have a meal. I still hadn't really slept, maybe rested a little bit Probably, was able to, like, send a couple of text messages to my family back home, because they were all on the edge of their seats too because it was going on for so long, and you know. So I relaxed for a little bit and then, you know, things started progressing more and I told them I did want to go ahead and try and push, and then I was, I guess, taking that risk, if the you know, if it needed to be an emergency C-section, I guess in my mind I felt like I tried everything, so I did, so we got ready to I'm trying to think if I'm missing anything here so at some point I don't know what happens the epidural like wears off or they stop giving it to you. They told me to hit the red button if I wanted more. I was hitting that button and nothing was happening, and so it got really painful again and yeah, so we started pushing.
Danielle:I had, like I said, fantastic midwives there too. They were really, really super supportive and they really I felt like they really supported my decision to try and have the baby vaginally instead of the C-section. I didn't feel like there was any judgment or anybody thought I was making the wrong decision. I felt like they really were supportive of it. The doctor also. I think she offered her opinion at the beginning, but she was not pushy. Um, she, you know she respected my decision, but I think it was clear that she wanted me to do the C-section. But once I said that I, you know, I wanted to try, I think she kind of stood back and respected that. So that was nice.
Danielle:Um, and then, uh, yeah, so then it came to pushing and it was yeah, it was really really hard. Yeah, I think I mean labor's hard as it is, and I think in that position it was just yeah, I felt like I was being split in half, like that's how I could describe the pain. Like I was like I think my body's just going to break, like I don't know Like. Describe the pain Like I was like I think my body's just going to break, like I don't know, like. But yeah, and at some point I thought, like another thing I hadn't researched. Like I said, I was like blissful in pregnancy, like I was in this, like like I just didn't think about things but I didn't research anything about like I don't know, like vacuum delivery and stuff. I didn't know what happens with that.
Danielle:So at one point I was wondering, like I think I asked one of the midwives is that like, can we do that, like can I get some help here? But they said no, that I didn't need it. I don't know what, you know what the basis for that is, I don't know enough about that and yeah. So then they, the doctor, came in for the like. They said, you know, these are going to be like the last two pushes or so.
Danielle:So the doctor came in for that and then, yeah, and then I was able to get her out. And you know, we didn't know we were having a girl. So it was very exciting, you know, when she was, when she was born, you know, for at first they like kind of held her up and I was just so out of it or I don't even know if somebody's hand was blocking her area. I was like what is it? Like I just I saw a baby but I just couldn't see like right away what it was. And they were like it's a girl. And then, you know, and then they put her on me and yeah, and so, and she, I got her out.
Julia:Yeah.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah, and there was. I mean I did tear, like I said, I felt like my body was being torn in half and you know, somewhat was. But they were very good about, you know, taking care. They. You know they put Mila, you know I named her Mila. You know they put her right on me and you know they worked on stitching me up and I actually don't even remember delivering the placenta. I don't know if it just blew out on its own, but I don't even have any recollection of that.
Christine:That's incredible and that you did it. You felt you just needed more time and you did.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah. So she was born, and she was born after midnight, so it technically went into Wednesday. So it felt like just this, like yeah, this, like marathon of Wow, yeah, yeah it was. It was a long time and I was just really, really relieved at the end that I was able to do it.
Julia:Julia here. It's my mission over at Happy Day to mentor and support you in creating a pregnancy, birth and postpartum experience that is empowering, holistic and uniquely tailored to your needs. Together, we'll uncover the tools and knowledge you need to thrive with confidence, mindfulness and self-compassion at the core of your journey. Together, we'll uncover the tools and knowledge you need to thrive with confidence, mindfulness and self-compassion at the core of your journey. That's the reason why I offer my three hallmark courses to parents in person in the Zurich area and online. They are Hypnobirthing Plus Mindful Postpartum Preparation and Hypnobirthing for Planned Caesarean Birth. Check out my website, happydayhypnobirthingch, or Instagram at happydaybumpsbabesbeyond, for more details, useful content and support.
Danielle:Now on to this week's Swiss birth story, yeah, and that we had our little girl and she was healthy and yeah, and even for, like, my family in the U S, because for them, you know, they're six hours behind us, so for them, you know, it kind of started on Sunday night and now it's like Tuesday there and they're like, you know, like can we get some updates? Are you having this baby? Or what Like? Yeah, and so yeah, so she's kind of got two birthdays her US birthday she was born on the 30th and her Swiss birthday it was technically the 31st.
Julia:Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Yeah, wow, what an intense story. Yeah long and you kept going and you, you got into a situation where you had to make a decision where there's no way to know if it's a hundred percent the right decision, but you knew what was right for you, at least in that moment. And to have to make that decision after so much and so long, it's um, and you, and you did it and you kept going.
Danielle:It's amazing, yeah, yeah, and I mean I was lucky. I really had a good care team. I know if I was in the U S she, they would have put me in for a C-section, without a doubt. I don't think they would have given me, uh, this. I mean I guess you always have a choice, but I, you know it's I think they would have pushed me into a C-section if I was giving birth in the US, and here I did feel more supported with my decision.
Julia:So she's on you. You've done it. You're in the birthing room. How was your postpartum in the hospital with her it?
Danielle:was good. I mean, they really left me with her and her on me for a really long time. Actually, my, you know, my mother kept texting me how much does she weigh? How big is she? I'm like I don't know.
Julia:They haven't taken her off of me.
Danielle:I have no idea and it's like hours and she's like they still haven't weighed her and I'm like no, she's just here laying down, she's comfortable, We'll find out.
Julia:It's not going to change, yeah. More than a couple grams of colostrum here or there, like he's not going to change. Yeah.
Danielle:So I just kind of hung with her in the birthing room. At this point my husband is like exhausted, because he's been up for like two days too, and I did kind of feel bad for him. Even though he didn't do the work, I felt like my, you know, my adrenaline kicked in, my like post-birth high, like all the hormones kick in and stuff, and I was kind of awake again. And he doesn't have all that, you know. So he's like falling asleep on a chair next to me and you know we were never supposed to be at Tramley so we didn't have. I think we would have tried if we knew we were going. We would have tried and organized a family room or something, but I had to go wherever they put me because I was the last minute kind of add on there. So we tried for a family and then it turned out they were all filled up. So I had to like when I went to the recovery rooms or my regular room I was by myself and he went home to sleep for a bit.
Julia:But um, did you transfer back to sorry, christina's thinking the same question as me.
Danielle:So this is another thing that I wasn't super informed about.
Danielle:They told me I could come back to Delphi's for the you know, the postpartum period.
Danielle:Delphi's told me, the hospital told me every you know, but I just didn't realize I guess that, like that would be such a great thing and I think, feeling a little bit like defeated and things didn't kind of go as planned. I wanted to go home as soon as possible. So you know, I asked the hospital for as soon as I can be released. You know, can I please just go home? So I did, I stayed. By the time I got to a room it was like 5am, so I stayed that day and one night in my room and then I went home the next morning. Looking back, I would have gone back to Delphi's and I would recommend it to anyone you know that's in a similar situation, the. I think you kind of like need that period to just kind of like hang and recover and have people taking care of you, and it was so for my second birth. I was at Delphi's and I did the postpartum period there. So now I can compare and it really is just. It's like being on a postpartum retreat. Yes, it's. You have people just taking care of you. The midwives that care for you are so fantastic chefs that come in each day and prepare all your food for you, and it was fantastic food. I mean everything was. Um was so great that and I don't think a lot of people realize too that with a hospital birth, even if it's a planned hospital birth you can go to a birthing center for your postpartum recovery. Um, and I don't think a lot of people realize that, and I, you know, I mean I only learned it this way, but and we did actually the second time I was at Delphi's there, there was another couple there too that came from a hospital, and but yeah it's. I think everyone should take advantage of that.
Danielle:If there's like one recommendation, it just go let yourself recover, let other people take care of you. You're in such good hands and it's this comfortable care too. That's different from, I think, being in a hospital with doctors and you know machines beeping and bright lights and stuff. It's this like you know. They come into your room. You're laying in this nice big bed, they sit with you, they talk to you. You know they also focus on how you're feeling like mentally after the birth and you know just this overall, like you know how everything went, and this just overall care for you and the baby. So that would really be my recommendation.
Danielle:Or what I hope everybody like knows too is that even if you want to do a hospital birth, that's you know, that's fantastic. You can still go to and recover this way and it's great, it's. Yeah, actually, I don't know if I'm allowed to like say names and stuff like that, but the big, fancy, fancy hotel in Zurich they have a postpartum retreat there too, and I said this was like my postpartum retreat, like, and like like this was it really felt like you know they come in, they, you know they take care of you, they massage your uterus. I was like I'm getting massages, like people are cooking my food, like this is really like excellent care.
Christine:And it's covered by insurance.
Danielle:Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the. The fantastic thing is like, yeah, you, your insurance pays for you to recover, which is great, I mean, and it's, it's necessary, you need it, and but yeah, so I didn't opt for that my first one and that would be, I guess, my advice afterwards like, yeah, yeah, I should have done that. So I stayed, as you know, the shortest time I could until they would release me, and then I came home, but I mean things, I was feeling good, the baby was doing good, so it was okay to go home. And, yes, we came home and I was nursing Mila One of the things, too, that I learned, and I feel like this is also important for people to watch out for, and I actually think one of your other guests mentioned this too Mila had a tongue tie, and she also had a lip tie, and it's something so small and it made such a huge difference in the nursing.
Danielle:And I think a lot of people don't realize that too. Like it could be like, if you're having like trouble nursing or you're having pain, or you know the baby's not eating enough, it could just be the tongue tie and it's such a simple fix. I mean, we brought her to a pediatric dentist in Zurich that specializes in that, and they lasered her tongue. It takes like two seconds, I think she said when they're that young they don't even really have nerves there, so they don't really feel it. It was, you know, I held her. It took two seconds. They like zip it with the laser done and the same thing for her. She had a lip tie also, which I think is a little bit less common. I'm not sure. I think the tongue tie interferes with the nursing more but I'm not sure.
Julia:I think the tongue tie interferes with the nursing more, but they fixed both of hers and it was like maybe two minutes of bleeding. She calmed right babies. I don't know if it's painful for them or not, but I know that when it happens, if they're upset, you latch them back onto the breast. They can feed immediately afterwards.
Julia:The amount of blood is literally drops and then they are instantly soothed and they're back to being a normal newborn it is very quick, for them to then feed efficiently, gain weight in a healthy way, for mom to not be completely injured all the time. It really is an amazing part of not just like the health of the mom and the baby, but also like public health, because breastfeeding has so many benefits. Yeah.
Danielle:Yeah, and it's as you were saying too. It's so quick and she goes right and you know they latch right away after that and they forget that it even happened and it's it really. It made it. That was like a turning point in the breastfeeding too, like it made everything easier, every like it was just not painful, she was feeding better. I think feedings were like more efficient and it just, yeah, it was a really so.
Danielle:For such a simple solution, that's like two seconds with a laser. And then my second daughter also had it when she was born too, and since I then knew what to look for and even you know, at the Gabor's house, like when we were like laying on the bed immediately after the birth, like the midwife said, oh, she's got tongue tie, like as soon as you saw hers was very prominent too, like she had like the little heart shaped tongue and you could see she couldn't stick her tongue out. So we had hers taken care of right away too. But yeah, so it's just something to watch for. That's like an easy fix and can make things a lot better Totally.
Julia:Totally. And then how was your postpartum experience? You've talked a great deal about the birth center. Thank you for the second and I'm, and that's fantastic. How was it? It sounds like they're both very different experiences. Obviously, you have another child too. How, how was your postpartum?
Danielle:Um, I have to say pretty good. I mean the with Mila, my first I. There was some tearing, so there was like a lot of like sensitivity sitting down and you know like, so that was the only physically that was a little bit tough. And then there were some issues with breastfeeding because of the tongue tie, but generally I think I I healed up pretty quickly. You know I was tired. You know motherhood it just makes you tired. You're, you know, looking after another human being. And then you know you don't realize, like at the beginning, like you know, how much work it is, or two, or how, like your brain changes, like that you're just constantly thinking about this other person now, like so. But overall I would say I had a very good like postpartum recovery. You know I had support at home from my husband, Um, you know my family's back in the U? S but he has family here, so we had some support that way. Um, but yeah, and I mean Mila, she was, she was a good baby. I would say she was like um, you know, pretty average like eight slept, you know all the things baby do. And then you know I was feeling kind of confident and I was like, okay, she's my baby, I can take care of her. And I decided to go to the US with her. So I took her pretty early on. She was seven weeks and I was like I think I can do this and I really wanted my family to meet her and be a part of it. So, yeah, her and I took a trip together. We left my husband behind because he had to work and, yeah, we did it. We got passports and we went. Yeah, so I would say, yeah, it was a pretty smooth recovery and emotionally too, I'm thankful I didn't Um, you know that was something I was concerned about too with like um, you know, I'd read a bit about postpartum depression and you know what it can feel like, or postpartum like anxiety as well.
Danielle:And um, and I actually talked to my husband about that and I was like if I don't recognize the symptoms, like please, you have to tell me and like get me help if I need it, because it can get very scary. The symptoms, like please, you have to tell me and like get me help if I need it, because it can get very scary. And and so he was aware of it, I was aware of it, but thankfully, you know, I felt pretty good. I mean, obviously there's some tears when you're struggling to nurse or when you haven't slept all night, or anything like that. But you know nothing, nothing that I, you know, couldn't control, I guess.
Christine:It's good that you you had that on your radar beforehand and had it on his radar.
Danielle:Yes, yeah, yeah, I told him, I said you need to watch for this because I might not see it in myself, and yeah, so thankfully we were on the same page and things went well. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, nursing after the lip tie and tongue tie were fixed, that went very well. Yeah, it was. It was nice, it was a nice experience with her and yeah.
Christine:Can you tell us a little bit about the second birth?
Danielle:know I I said to myself, if I can get through the birth with Mila, with her being face up and everything and all that, I can get through anything. And you know that was kind of my mindset going into it. And I think birth was still very painful. It's not that it was, you know, like so much less painful. I mean it was less painful. It was also shorter, so I wasn't in pain, I didn't need that stamina. But with Lenny, my second, she also kind of like I had been having contractions so I had, I guess, signs, more signs with her. I was having contractions, but sporadic, here and there, and then I was having contractions like all through the night, but nothing like consistent. And then in the afternoon when my first daughter, mila, went down for a nap, I said I'm going to go lay down because I, you know I'm tired. I was up all night and so when I laid down then it just started like one after the other, after the other, and then it started to get fast, pretty quick, and so I told my husband he was like, okay, we have to go. So the three of us went to Delphi's and from there my father-in-law picked Mila up. So she came and she saw the birthing room, we told her we're going to go get a baby now and she knew, you know the baby's in mommy's belly and stuff. And we said we're going to, we're going to get the baby out. We didn't know again if we were having a boy or girl. So we said we're going to, you know, we're going to see, you're going to have a little brother or sister, we'll get the baby out and then we'll have you come back. And she was like okay, you know, in the afternoon and she was born at 6.19. So she was a lot faster, which was great.
Danielle:And just to shorten the story a bit, I ended up doing the water birth and it's something I wasn't sure I was going to do because I generally I'm not like a swimmer, I don't always like being in water or anything. But I was on the bed and I was like you know, maybe let me try it and see if this helps a little bit. And I think the thing with the water birth for me is it didn't take away pain but it allowed me a lot more flexibility of movement. Like you know, everything's obviously more fluid and you can just kind of roll over and back and forth and stuff. So I think that being able to move and change positions helped. I also tried which I read about and they gave me at Delphi's.
Danielle:I tried for the first time birthing combs, where you hold them in your hand. They look like hair combs kind of, but you hold them in your hand and I guess the idea is to kind of redirect the pain a little bit. I would say they were helpful for a slight redirection. I don't think it was like a game changer for me, but I think it was a good tool to use so I'd recommend those. I mean, it's, you know, little to no intervention, right, you're just holding combs, and it's something that can help. But yeah, so she came along a bit faster In the water. Yeah, yeah, she was a water birth and yeah, she was a good birth too.
Julia:And yeah, I wonder about your tearing. If we don't mind asking. Because that can often be a fear if it happened the first time. I mean, it, very understandably, is a fear for most moms that they're gonna tear. So I'm curious about that, if you don't mind talking about it yeah, so with Mila, you know, I don't know.
Danielle:It's like some people talking in terms of stitches, like I had 10 stitches. I don't know, I didn't ask. I know I had two separate tears and immediately after the birth I had to have a catheter because I guess I tore somewhere near the like. I don't know the urethral hole.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah, so, so, yeah. So I did have to have that, and that was one of the reasons why, too, they didn't want to release me right away from the hospital. They had to make sure that I could like, I guess, like go to the bathroom on my own and stuff. So, yeah, it was in my mind with the second birth like, okay, could this happen again? And you know, at some point you can't worry about everything. So I was like, well, if it happens, then they sew me and you know, and then if there's any care that's needed, I will get it. But I didn't want it to be like holding me back at all.
Danielle:So for the second birth, they said I had one tiny, tiny tear. They did one stitch. They even debated if they were going to do it or not and they said let's just do it. It was a small one, I didn't feel anything, I didn't even afterwards. The stitch, I guess, just fell out on its own. It was never even a thing for me, I didn't really remember it. So the second one was a lot better in terms of, like, tearing and recovery in that sense, yeah, yeah. And actually with the second birth too, one of the differences I noticed was the. They said I had a very large placenta and it was very tough to deliver it. And whereas I mentioned in the first one, I don't even remember doing it, so it must have been fairly easy. The second one it was it was definitely more pushing. It was almost like another little birth. They were pushing on my stomach, they, you know. Yeah, it was harder to get out.
Julia:Wow, were you in the water still for the placenta birth or had you come out? No, at that point I had come out of the water, yeah, so, oh, then the relief when that's out.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then yeah for the second one. Then I knew, you know, I wanted to stay and do the. Actually I wasn't sure how long I was going to stay at Delphi's, because now I have the toddler at home and I want to make sure she's okay and everything. So I said, well, maybe I'll play it by ear a little bit, but I stayed, insurance will cover four nights and I did stay four nights and it was so wonderful, it was nice and relaxing.
Julia:Oh, I'm so happy you took that time.
Danielle:Yeah, yeah, and my husband was able to stay with me, I think, three of those nights. So for anyone interested in doing that, like you do pay for the partner to be able to stay there. That part's not covered by insurance but it is really nice to have somebody there and somebody cooking your meals and just taking care of you. And yeah, and then my daughter Mila, she visited. My husband would get her and bring her. Her grandparents brought her one time and yeah.
Christine:So she was yeah it costs a lot less than getting a private room at a hospital.
Danielle:So oh, does it okay?
Christine:yeah significantly and the food is yeah, yeah, I yeah, delphi's was.
Danielle:I mean, I can't recommend it enough, it's just yeah, it was great, had a really great experience there. I didn't want to leave, yeah, yeah.
Christine:I have asked them if you can come back without delivering, and so far the answer is no, so yeah, yeah, it's a nice place and then what was the postpartum like, once you got home with the baby and a toddler?
Danielle:So that is, yeah, that's. That's a different story now, because now, yeah, you're trying to coordinate. I'm sure anybody who has more than one now realize like, the reality then hits you. When you're home You're like, oh, I have to coordinate everybody. Now We've been so lucky. Lenny is a really really good baby. Lenny is a really really good baby. She's just very calm, she sleeps well, she eats well. She's just like you know. She just like she doesn't cry a lot, she doesn't spit up a lot, she's just like. Really, she's just such a great baby I don't know how I got.
Julia:She's happy to be here, she's happy to be part of the family. Some babies are just like that, and isn't that like that's just, that's just it. Like baby temperament makes a really big difference. And some babies really are just, they're just happy to be here. Some of them yeah, she is.
Danielle:She's a happy little girl. She just, yeah, she doesn't, yeah, she doesn't fuss much, you know. I said you know. First I said she's the type of baby that will make you think, oh, I could have 10 more. But then I also looked at it from the other side. I said no, you know what. She's the type of baby who makes me think I'll never get this lucky again. Just quit here. Just, I mean, and we don't plan on having more, so but yeah, I don't think I'd ever get that lucky again.
Julia:She's really good. I've heard that from midwives. She's the kind of baby that'll trick you. Yeah yeah, like that, yeah yeah.
Danielle:So but yeah, so adjusting to two is just it requires a bit more work. I mean, I think it's. You know, the relationship between my husband and I also like changes a little bit too, because now it's like all right, like he's a little bit more in charge of the toddler, I'm a little bit more in charge of the, you know, the newborn and and we're kind of like shuffling back and forth Okay, you get this one ready to bed, I'll go feed this one. You know like, and it's just, yeah, it's, it's a bit more work, but we're, you know, we're settling into it. Now Lenny is, she's going to be four months. So we've been doing little more settled and Mila has accepted her little sister. There were some, you know, some moments. When she first met her at Delphi she was just like okay, like not impressed.
Danielle:She's not going to play with me.
Christine:You know, I think also when there's a little.
Julia:The realization of like a little sister or a little baby doesn't mean like an instant playmate, and she's just like a little limpet who just like eats and cries and sits on mommy. And it's a little bit, can be weird for them. Yeah, like when do I get to play with my sister? Yes, and that joy is to come for you. It's going to be amazing Watching them fall in love. Yeah.
Danielle:Yeah, I'm looking forward to it and even now, like I mean, you know, lenny's only four months, but she started to like grab things.
Danielle:So you know Mila will sit there and she'll kind of like reach for her, or she pulled her hair the other day, or you know like so, or Mila will try and hand her like one of her little like toys, and so they're interacting a little bit more now and you know Mila's a little bit more now and you know meal is a little bit more used to it, like having to, I guess you know, share the spotlight a little bit or share mommy's attention, and you know one of the nice things about two is she does get, you know, a nice relationship with her father a little bit more, where she always looked to me more cause I'm home with her.
Danielle:Now you know she does things that are especially, you know, like for like daddy and her. You know she does things that are especially, you know, like for like daddy and her, you know, and it's cute, um, so she has that nice relationship with him and I mean they always had a good relationship, but it's like now it's like they're like a little special bond too, which is something nice.
Christine:I love that, I love those stories and how they, how they fit together. And we have one final question for you, and that is is throughout. This whole process can be pregnancy, first birth, second birth anywhere?
Danielle:in there. What would you say was your most brilliant moment?
Julia:Oh, brilliant in what?
Danielle:sense like something that stands out to me the most or intentionally vague.
Julia:You can decide what does brilliant mean for you in this sense?
Danielle:Oh, wow, Okay, this is. Yeah. I mean you might have to do some editing for my long pause here. Take your time.
Christine:It's a big question and there's a lot of moments.
Danielle:I'm sure. Yeah, I mean yeah, maybe because, you know, after Mila, I kind of, you know, I knew I wanted to have a second, I wanted her to have a sibling, and we struggled to get pregnant the second time. So, once Lenny was finally here, I think, like the first time maybe, we were like all together as four and I knew that like that's what I wanted. I had wanted a second, I knew I wasn't having any more. I think, realizing, like, like this is my family, like this is, like this is who we are, we're the four of us and we're going to be together, hopefully for a very, very long time and you know, and have this like fantastic life together, so I think, like feeling complete, once Lenny was here, yeah, I think that what I'd have to say was like just a really, really great feeling, cause it did.
Danielle:It took us you know there was a process that's a whole other story to you know to be able to have Lenny. So I think, once she was finally here, we were, you know, and I kind of I didn't find out with either of my pregnancies what I was having. I kind of always envisioned myself with two little girls. I have a sister, so I was used to, you know, like, and my sister has two girls, and I just kind of like envisioned myself too with two girls and I just felt like, okay, we're complete, it's us Like. It was a good feeling.
Julia:Yeah, that is amazing. Thank you, danielle. That was just an incredible story, stories, and I'm grateful for them. Thank you.
Danielle:Thank you, thank you guys, for having me on.
Julia:Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Swiss Birth Stories. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an inspiring birth story or expert insight. Your support means the world to us and helps this community grow, so please also take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach even more parents-to-be. Don't forget to share this episode with a friend or loved one who could benefit from it, and be sure to follow us on social media at Swiss Birth Stories for even more tips, resources and updates on upcoming podcast guests. Tips, resources and updates on upcoming podcast guests, courses and events. We'd love to hear your thoughts, questions and birth stories too, so feel free to DM us, fill out the form on our website, swissbirthstoriescom, or tag us in your posts. Until next time, keep sharing, keep learning and keep connecting with each other.
.JPG)
