S01E12 Simone: One Birth in The Netherlands, One in Switzerland. Unexpected Home Birth, Surrender and Strength.

Simone's resources below 

Simone shares her remarkable journey of giving birth to her two sons in two different countries (the Netherlands and Switzerland), revealing how cultural and systemic differences profoundly shape the birth experience beyond just the physical process.

• Born and raised in Amsterdam before relocating to Switzerland with her family
• First pregnancy transformed from planned birth center delivery to unexpected home birth in the Netherlands 
• Second pregnancy culminated in a planned home birth in Switzerland
• Used hypnobirthing techniques for both births which helped manage pain
• First birth required a mental shift from resistance to surrender which transformed pain perception
• Second birth was quicker, more primal, and required different coping strategies
• Noticed significant differences between Dutch midwife-led system and Swiss more medicalized approach
• Learned to trust her body and ask questions when confronted with different medical recommendations
• Found second-time motherhood more relaxed, with less need for strict schedules
• Experienced postpartum care differently in each country, with different emphasis and support types
• The most brilliant part of motherhood has been discovering inner strength and reconnecting with her body

Remember that birth is your time to shine. You can do this!

Simone hosts mother's circles in Uster, ZH, you can find out more information here: https://www.salonduyoga.ch/workshops/ 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Simona's Birth Journey
• 5:47 Pregnancy Experiences and Preparation
• 19:47 Unexpected Home Birth in Netherlands
• 32:32 Moving to Switzerland's Different System
• 44:32 Second Birth Experience in Switzerland
• 50:44 Postpartum Journey with Two Children
• 57:45 Letting Go and Finding Confidence

Transcript

Julia: 0:07

Hi, welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. I'm Julia Neal, mother, perinatal educator, hypnobirthing coach and trainee doula.

Christine: 0:17

And I'm Christina Bliven. I'm a doula, baby-wearing consultant, childbirth educator and mother of three.

Julia: 0:29

What happens when you give birth in two different countries with very different approaches to maternity care. In this episode, simona takes us through her remarkable journey of birthing her two sons, one in her native Netherlands and one in her new home of Switzerland. Born and raised in Amsterdam before relocating here with her fiancé and toddler, simona shares how her first birth transformed from a planned birth center delivery to an unexpected home birth and her planned home birth here in Switzerland. Simona's story is for everyone, whether you're pregnant with your first or preparing for another, at home or in hospital. Her story of power, perception and transformation resonate in all birth spaces and beyond. Hi, simona, I am so happy to welcome you to the podcast. Hi, yes, me too. Yeah, before we get started, could you talk to us a little bit about you, introduce yourself and your family?

Simone: 1:30

Yes, so I am born and raised in Amsterdam and moved last year to Switzerland with my husband and two kids. I'm a mother of two. I have two boys Tiago, who is three years old, and Luca, who is six months old. I'm now since one year in Switzerland, and I think it was I had a privilege to give birth in two different countries, so my first son was born in the Netherlands and Luca is born here in Switzerland, so that also gave me lots of new insights on how we're giving birth. It's not only a physical thing, but also in terms of in which system we give birth and the culture around it. So that's why I'm also excited to share my birth stories this morning with you, the listeners.

Christine: 2:21

Yes, yeah, we'll be excited to hear some of those differences and similarities between the two.

Simone: 2:28

Um, maybe just start with how you guys decided to start a family and how that came about it was, um, we did not actually very plan already so soon to start a family, but it happened. So, um, we were at this point living in Amsterdam. So my husband moved to Amsterdam and we, after some years, we traveled together. That's where we also met. We met actually in Colombia that's another story. But we then decided to, yeah, to move to Amsterdam, to start our family there and yeah, that's's. It was not actually a planned birth, so it was a super, super nice surprise and, uh, so everything was completely new for us. Um, from the moment we found out, we um, yeah, from then on, we, we started to plan actually and prepare and prepare ourselves to become parents. Yes, it was a very scary, scary phase and also a very loving phase and exciting and life-changing. Like, yeah, you have no idea what to expect actually, that's, you can prepare, but in a way, also not.

Christine: 3:41

And what about the, the pregnancies? How did those, and were they similar to each other or completely different experience?

Simone: 3:48

Completely different. Yes, so my with Tiago I felt overall pretty good, like I just came to realize when I became pregnant with Tiago that I I came from a period of a lot of stress, so there was a lot of work, stress, and really that first pregnancy sort of invited me to do my checks and to look at my body, like, okay, where am I standing and how are my minerals, vitamins, and it really sort of boosted me in my health, and so I think I came from already a place where my iron was very low. I did not know, but I was just continuing a sort of survival mode in that sense for many years. So my first pregnancy really, yeah, sort of started to shine light on that, like, okay, how can I health and strengthen myself? So I was not nauseous, I um received some iron shots and I started to change my diet. I was, uh, before that, vegetarian, so I also added a bit more animal proteins as well and I just noticed, oh, this is actually what my body is craving. And more and more, more I started to feel more healthy. So that's why I, yeah, my first pregnancy, I felt actually gaining more energy and becoming more strong.

Simone: 5:13

And my second pregnancy that was the other. The opposite, yeah, I felt very nauseous and I, yeah, low energy, and I did not enjoy it as much as with the first. With the first one I thought OK, you can stay in there for a long time. I was also 42 weeks when I gave birth. I think that also had maybe slightly to do with that, that I was just so loving to be pregnant. And with the second one, I thought at one point yeah, it's time you can come.

Julia: 5:44

I think that's very logical. You had a toddler at home so you probably couldn't enjoy the same thing and you did a move, I guess, like while pregnant. Is that right?

Simone: 5:53

uh, no, well, no, we moved uh to Switzerland we in December, and then I got pregnant in March, so we were yeah but still, it was a very new environment and, um, yeah, of course, I was still dealing with homesickness and also finding my way in a new country, and I just remember, oh yeah, what I've learned from my first pregnancy is the importance of building your network and your support system, especially when you give birth. It's not only the nine months leading up to it, it's especially also the period afterwards. So I was also really trying to focus on that. Okay, but I also need to make new connections and so, yeah, there were many other themes going on, also mental themes, I would say than with my first pregnancy, so maybe that also had an influence on how how I just regularly felt during my second pregnancy, even though everything went luckily fine and medical issues in that sense, um, but yeah, just lack of energy.

Simone: 6:57

I just yeah, it was. It was tough the first three months. I remember it was sometimes feelings of, oh, maybe this is how it feels to be depressed, like it didn't make sense, like I just really felt like, wow, I don't recognize myself so much anymore. I'm often quite positive and always see the bright side on things. But now I could kind of, yeah, also just fully go into into that which was a bit dark in a way. But and then again, after the three months, I was like wow, okay, things are changing again. What us women go through, we are, we could, we can go into, you know it's, it's incredible how you can also then again shift out of it in a way, um, but yeah, in that moment it feels quite scary because you think, oh, is this now the new, the new way of feeling?

Julia: 7:46

Yeah, which can feel really dark, and especially when combining those feelings with just just pure exhaustion and they're linked together so much. Yeah, yeah.

Simone: 7:59

Yeah, and then feelings again also which I did not experience with the first pregnancy of guilt because I had already a toddler running around and, yeah, I had no energy to go out, you know, like I really had to drag myself to the playground or and sometimes I just, like you know, put the tv on.

Simone: 8:18

You know, just like out of, I'm just exhausted, I just need to lay down because I need to throw up. So there were also new feelings of that guilt, sort of the mom guilt that we yeah, that I also read about like, oh yeah, okay, these new emotions are also coming into play, yeah, with the second pregnancy. So, yeah, there were very different pregnancies.

Julia: 8:42

I would say even though Did you get that second trimester boost?

Simone: 8:47

yes, yes, yes yeah, luckily I did. Yeah, it was um. Then we, uh, went also to Italy. I remembered, and I started to crave some food again. So I thought, okay, that's the best way to celebrate again with the life from perfect place to crave food again for that transition, that mode.

Simone: 9:07

I was like, okay, I'm back, I'm getting more and more back again into my own uh, body feeling and and yeah. So I also thought, maybe then I have, I have a girl, I'm praying for my girl, I don't know, but nothing to do with it. I have two boys. So there's also yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Julia: 9:36

Julia here. It's my mission over at happy day to mentor and support you in creating a pregnancy, birth and postpartum experience that is empowering, holistic and uniquely tailored to your needs. Together, we'll uncover the tools and knowledge you need to thrive with confidence, mindfulness and self-compassion at the core of your journey. That's the reason why I offer my three hallmark courses to parents in person in the Zurich area and online. They are Hypnobirthing Plus Mindful Postpartum Preparation and Hypnobirthing for Planned Cesarean Birth. Check out my website, happydayhypnobirthingch or Instagram at happydaybumpsbabes beyond, for more details, useful content and support. Now on to this week's Swiss birth story. Um and then, while, while you were pregnant, I guess, with your first and, if applicable, to your second, what were you doing to prepare for birth and for the transition to motherhood?

Simone: 10:46

So I followed a hypnobirthing course in the Netherlands and this was, yeah, this was really nice. I felt like, oh, this is actually the first time I learn about really the female body, which you know, we touch it perhaps a little bit, but it's maybe also a bit stays on the surface in a way and, yeah, so for me, a new world sort of opens with during the course, also to learn about autonomy of our bodies and how it functions and and also the importance of um, your thoughts and the breath and um, so that I, yeah, I just remember I and the positive, positive stories. I just also remembered that I luckily had already some friends that um, um, that you know already had some kids. So they really also highlighted the fact like, like, just, you know, focus on on positive birth stories, like, uh, hear them repeat them, um, stay in that, in that line and and um, surround yourself with that. And I did that. So, yeah, I listened to a lot of podcasts as well about birth stories and um my diet.

Christine: 11:57

So that was also preparation.

Simone: 11:58

I just really dived into reading about nourishment, about different types of yeah, a bit like Ayurveda. I also started to become more interested in that and I also I also learned more about foods, about, um, yeah, more more like how to take care of yourself and also how to rest. And you know, before my, before my first pregnancy, I was just going on automatic pilot and I really wanted I had so much need for control in a way, and like I always had the need for to stay or be productive, and then my pregnancy really just sort of mirrored me like okay, but you've done that now for the last 30 years. It's now time to take a breath, literally like your breath, and and to rest. And so I learned also to take siestas in my first pregnancy.

Julia: 12:49

That's amazing that's such a good thing to learn in pregnancy.

Simone: 12:53

Yes, yes, so I think that was also a great preparation to surrender yourself, to take a nap during the day or whenever you, whenever it's possible, because that helps you also in the postpartum phase, where you also need to, yeah, take as much rest as possible.

Simone: 13:10

And um, and also the the practice of asking for help, because there were moments, especially in my second pregnancy, where, and especially also in a new country, where I needed to get out of my comfort zone to ask new connections, like not even my mom or my sisters, but like really fresh connections for help, and that was quite yeah, it takes a bit of courage and to be funerable in that way to say, hey, I, yeah, I just I need you, can you do groceries or can you cook for me, or can you watch Tiago for some hours, and that's yeah.

Simone: 13:46

I think that was most of the preparation things that popped up now, and also cooking. But that was more in my second pregnancy because with the first I was not so much focused on postpartum, even though I read about it, but everything was so new that already the leading up to the birth was taking up a lot of time, I would say. So I thought, okay, the rest comes after, but, learning from that first birth, I could say okay, also invest some time to prepare for the months after you give birth. And then I'm talking about fill up your freezer or, you know, ask friends to cook with you an afternoon and make some meals, because that helps, like if there's food in the house, or to have maybe a cleaning, like a cleaning service that you can arrange in a way.

Christine: 14:34

Yeah, that's, that's all that's that was more of my second pregnancy that I prepared also more for my postpartum because you knew a little bit more of what was coming.

Simone: 14:44

So, yes, yes, yes, yeah, because we always think it's nine months, but actually you're pregnant for 12 months in a way or like. And also the fact of um, we always think, okay, then the nine months are over, you have three months maybe again with postpartum. But the whole body I read, I read a quote like it takes us 18 months to fully restore, maybe even longer to, for the organs had to be, it to be in the same place again, the hormones again to be to rebalance again. So there, I think we could create much more awareness around that.

Simone: 15:17

Like it's not, it's okay to take time again to heal or to rest and to recover from giving birth, and not only physically. And that's maybe sometimes the confusing part, because you know after birth, when the birth went, uh, well, and and you, you, you are recovered. That could also be signs like oh, I'm fit, I am, I walk again, so I can be productive again, or I should continue again with you know, before the birth. But actually it's also with the mental state again, like, oh, but wait, what do I really need? Is this really what will nurture me at this moment? And I think, yeah, the feelings are very important then to take time also in space, to create space for that, to listen to that, because that's also transition to being in a family and having a family and having more bodies and more people on your mind.

Julia: 16:12

Um, is is a huge transition and to and it's an ongoing one, right, but just to validate, just to validate those changes in you, to just assume, even if you're feeling well, let's say, and after a few months or even weeks you feel very well, you know, if you were really into rock climbing and you would be at the gym rock climbing three to five hours on a Saturday, that no longer feels right. Saturday. That no longer feels right. You know, and how do you reconcile the, the desires and the, and the feelings and the and the ties? You know we have these strings to our children. It's, it's even more than, yeah, just physical. There's so much more to go on and you need time yes, and I also think it's.

Simone: 16:56

It's also to give time for your own new version to be birthed. Yes, because you know, I think and sometimes it's also beautiful if you hit that wall of like, oh, I'm not feeling well, what? Oh, I'm continue. I continue the way I was used to, but actually I am. I'm a mother now.

Simone: 17:12

I have now a child, a family, and maybe, yeah, there's there's some some things that I need to change, or like other needs, other, um, habits that I sort of need to override. So, yeah, to also to become more aware of that. It's not only a baby that is being born into this world, it's also a mother that is a newer version of yourself. It's not like you have to, that you're losing. It doesn't sound scary, it's like an extension, it's like an, an expansion in a way.

Simone: 17:40

So, yeah, to give time for that and to um, to trust also that that version is being created and that you will feel more and more in well, into this new sort of yeah, version of yourself. So, yeah, and that there's nothing is wrong with you. Even if you have days where you feel like, oh, I cannot, I cannot manage it anymore or I don't have any energy to do anything. That's okay. That's that's the time that you need to integrate all these new elements. So, yeah, to be gentle, to really be gentle on yourself yeah, that's what I really had to learn like, yeah, what I went through with my pregnancies.

Julia: 18:25

Yeah, I agree with you. 100 percent, 100 percent. Let's go and take me back, or take us back to your first birth in the Netherlands.

Simone: 18:39

What did you? Did you have signs, early signs of going into labor with him. So I was 41.6 when I decided, okay, I had my check in the morning and then she could see already, okay, you are one centimeter dilating. I was nearly like going into the 42 weeks. So I really hoped that I would give birth on that day because, yeah, otherwise I would become medical and my wish was to give birth in a birthing center. So that was connected to a hospital because, yeah, I still had that belief of, ok, I want to be near a hospital or to be monitored and a bit more that felt safe in that time to do it this way. Safe in that time to to do it this way, um, so I remember that morning, um, she said, um, um, okay, is it okay if I do a swap? Right, that's sweet, sweep, sorry. I said, okay, yeah, that's that's okay to do. And she already saw one centimeter. So I thought, okay, I'm trusting that I'm already.

Simone: 19:36

Yeah, that's also a nice interesting topic, like when, how? Like sometimes you get this question how long was your birth? Like, yes, um, which part? Like the total, which part which? Because I was already, my body was already opening. But you know, that morning I was still having a coffee, so like a drink, somewhere, and I went to the store and you know, I didn't feel so much yet, maybe a slight cramp, but not so intense, so actually it was already starting. And so I just remember that night when, around six, then you know more signs of okay, heavy cramps, but yeah, because it's the first birth, so you have no idea what to. Yeah, is this normal? Is this now intense or not?

Simone: 20:17

So I remember when my husband came back from that football, because we were already waiting for two weeks, so I thought, yeah, you could, you could go to a soccer to play soccer. Uh, he came home and then it was 10 and I just remembered and, yeah, the feelings of okay, intensity, and then it was quite overwhelming, I would say, with the contractions and um, so yeah, long story. I mean, at one point I just remember that I everything what I've learned from the course, from the hypnobirthing course, with my breathing techniques, and in a way I kind of lost it. I was a bit like overwhelmed, like, oh, this is how it feels, this is intense, like I'm not going to. These are intense feelings, but okay, how do I get back into a sort of rhythm or the waves that I, that we always learned about. I kind of forgot it, and so I looked at my husband. I said, no, I'm not going to do this. And he was like, yeah, there's one way forward, you're doing great, and it's like okay, um, and everything what I expected, sort of, was not working. So I mean that's also again, I think, uh, the whole circle of of birthing and like letting go of any expectations, um, but yeah.

Simone: 21:33

So he called the midwife and she came and then she said, okay, you're six, six centimeters. I thought, okay, that's, yeah, I'm opening, it's going well, but I feel a lot of pain. So then she said I will make a call, then we can go to the birthing center. She came back within a minute and she told me, like all the hospitals are full and also the birthing centers are full. So, yeah, so we have no, yeah, but yeah, let me call again, maybe I can find another hospital in another city. And I thought, yeah, no, I am born in Amsterdam, also not only for that reason, but I just want to stay in my city and also the idea of going into a taxi on the highway somewhere. I thought no.

Simone: 22:17

So I looked at my midwife and I told her I was even surprised by that question. And I said I looked at her and I said, oh, we stay here, we stay home. And she looked at me and she said you're doing so great, you're opening. You know, your body is working so beautifully, you can do this. And then I said okay, just one. Like two questions One, have you done this before? Said yes, so I was like okay, confirmation one she there's an expert in the room, um. And the second question was uh, okay, it's so, it's painful. Do you have something for that? And she said uh, no, and in a way that was the the biggest gift, because you know. Then it's also clear. It's like okay, this is it. And then she told me let's remember where it's here to to work with you know. And I said yes, and I remember.

Simone: 23:04

And then everything kind of clicked in a in a way, with the techniques that I learned. But most importantly, what? What happened then? It was a mental shift and I made a shift in my mind like, okay, I'm the one sort of attaching myself so much to the sensations. Maybe I should, you know I should, I should surrender, but yeah, how to do that. It's my was my first time and the sensations are there. It's a real physical experience and, in a way, super mental. So, yeah, I looked at my husband and he was also there, like you're doing great. So I thought, okay, this is my support team, I feel safe and I I looked at my body.

Simone: 23:44

My body is doing it. So I am the only one sort of in the way, or I, how, my thoughts. So I need to, I need to take a step back and from that moment on, really the, the, the, the, the pain changed into um, in, in, in. I could bear it, I could work with it. It was there, but it was not overruling me anymore. And that was such an insight for me, if I look back again at that moment, how powerful your thoughts are, how powerful your, yeah, it's not only the physical body, it the mental body, it's the energetic body, it's it's you and and yeah, so it was more than again from a bit of an observer uh that I observed myself giving birth. It sounds maybe a bit fake, but, um, that was my experience then afterwards. So it was like two, two faces in that birthing process. And then Tiago was born, um, yeah, at home and uh, in the early morning, and and it was yeah, yeah, no, actually I don't know how to explain wow, that is amazing.

Julia: 24:52

So, yeah, oh my gosh. So you didn't have, yeah, the the pool. You didn't have all these plans that people who do home births like this plan and I just nothing, nothing, no, there was nothing. That's amazing just this amazing midwife who was like you know what, actually you can do this like she used her school, her skills of observation and her medical training and she was like no you could do this and also the importance of the voice, especially from women.

Simone: 25:21

Um, because there was a situation like Tiago was 42 weeks when I gave birth to him and he he was nearly 4.1 kilos, so it was it was a big boy and in the end I was on old force position, like that felt. I had for a long time the bird stool. That was very comfortable, but but then so at the end I did old fours and there was a situation where he was a bit stuck in the birth kennel and I just remembered, like I mean I was, you know, I was just focusing on the contractions, but I just remembered hearing the voices and in a way I could not see them because my face was in a pillow, but just the tone of their voice told my body like you're still safe, it is still okay, like there was not a single moment where I felt their stress, even though there was a situation going on and I think I even get goosebumps again because I think there's so much information in that Because I felt safe and I thought I still still like there's still nothing going on. And there was one. The midwife used her voice to say Simone, because my contraction also stopped, I had no contractions anymore because I think my body thought the baby was out, so there was, there were no contractions.

Simone: 26:34

And she said, simone, now you're going to push, but like the hardest you can, like hard. Like with her voice she was like like really giving me so much power, like I thought I pushed, but she was again with her voice saying like more, but really in an encouraging way, but also in a sort of yeah, sort of animal, like I don't know, like like you need to continue, you need to do this right now. And it helped me and I pushed him out with without a contraction and it worked. And he, you know, and I often thought about it and it's always you know, afterwards you don't know how it would end up in a hospital or in a birth center, but I mean, there was a situation. But my midwife then, yeah, still stayed. She stayed so calm because she knew how important that is for us women to stay open and to, yeah, to stay the people around them, what they did to make them feel safe.

Christine: 27:43

You know like they're doing all these things, but this is a good example of we're not doing like if the midwife is just sitting in the corner crocheting or something. What a symbol that is Like she is not stressed, or just like you say the voice she's using she's not stressed, she's the professional. Therefore, I can stay calm.

Simone: 28:00

Yes, yeah, stressed, she's the professional, therefore, I can stay calm. Yes, yeah, I love that. I think that is really the the whole point of giving birth. The platform is for the mothers, for us, and and the rest is, you know is there, but we are uh, we are just uh how do you say that? Supporters, but not interfering at all. No, it's up to the mothers to to to fully own that.

Julia: 28:20

Yes, yeah um, so then he's born and you're, I don't know, you're in the early hours of the morning in your home. What, what was that like?

Simone: 28:37

it felt like unreal, but also it was. It was very serene, like a sort of calmness, and even though we, our apartment was right in the city center, it was very busy, we did not hear that it was. There was a sort of blanket over us of calmness and I mean he was born in our bed. So we stayed in the bed for yeah, for I mean I for days, but like he also, like also my husband with with Tiago, just for forever. And also I just remember that there was no rushing there.

Simone: 29:15

We took time for the placenta I mean that was then after, but both also time for no, the measurement. But I don't even know how tall he was actually with birth. We did not measure him, there was no need. She was just placing him in between us and she, um, she left again, she went upstairs to make breakfast for us or some juice, and and that was it, and and yeah, then afterwards, but in that moment, maybe for hours, there was no interfering in checking the baby. I mean, of course she checked with the lung, but it was in my, yeah, he was in my hands and he stayed there. So that was just really, really peaceful.

Julia: 29:58

I almost I want to stay in this moment forever, but I also want I also know that we have a podcast to do here, so I'm gonna ask a follow-up question. Um, how did how did the rest of the postpartum with Tiago go? How? How was that experience for you? How was feeding?

Simone: 30:16

um, so with my, the breastfeeding went well, um, yeah, so I I don't remember I had any any um issues with that. Um, I had a great um so midwife and and who took also care of me. So in the netherlands we had you have seven days, so, but these are the midwife comes every day. So for a week. So I know that the whole swiss system is different, but in the nancy of one week and then um, every day your midwife comes, she checks you and, um, she helps with, with, um, with whatever you need. She also cooks. Uh, sometimes she makes breakfast, uh, she um takes care of the baby so you can take a shower. It's like she, she's really there, um, I'm not sure if every midwife is like this, but my experience was, uh, yeah, this was a beautiful woman who who helped me to transition. She was also there with during the birth. Um and um, yeah, I just remember I stayed.

Simone: 31:16

I tried to stay in bed as long as possible, but that was again another challenge for me to yeah, to undo or to to not do in a way, and we we had two, two floors, so I just remember I stayed on the first floor for at least two weeks. I just remember that that I kind of made sure that I was just, yeah, staying in the house and we had. I. Also a friend of mine gave me a tip like be gentle with who to invite, just don't feel pressured that straight people need to pass by or need to come. They could also leave something at the door and then you know it's it's whenever you are ready you start to invite and show the baby. So that was, yeah. Also, I also tried to do that with my sister's game and my mom, but that was kind of the small inner circle first and yeah.

Christine: 32:10

Hi, I'm Christina, a doula, baby wearing consultant, childbirth educator and mother of three. I'm the owner of Lilybee, a family hub in Zurich where you can find resources, community and support in English as you begin your journey into parenthood. It takes a village. Find yours here.

Julia: 32:33

And then you moved to Switzerland. So how was the lead up to birth and then the decisions for the birth around your second son? Because now you have a sort of unexpected home birth behind you, little bit less of a home birth tradition than the Netherlands does. Switzerland, certainly, home birth is completely covered under your insurance and you can absolutely have a home birth here, but it's not quite as normalized as it is in the Netherlands. What were your choices like here? How did that go? And then how did the lead up to birth go?

Simone: 33:13

Yes. So when I found out that I was pregnant, um, yeah, I thought, okay, now I call a midwife. And so the dutch system has a midwife lead, um uh system. So that means that, um, the midwives are in charge. Like, you don't see a doctor or a gynecologist only if you, if there are reasons for it. So, if you, uh, if there's a medical indication whatsoever, then you are being referred, but in, in the basis, it's the, it's the midwives that are in charge. And then I moved to switzerland and with that idea in mind, I thought, okay, now I need to call midwife. And then I quickly learned, like, oh, no, it's a gynecologist that you call, and that's actually sort of where you start off from from then. And, um, so I found fia, a friend actually, in a gynecologist. Um, and yeah, I just remembered, uh, one of the first conversations. It was a man I had with him. I he said, oh, oh, you're from the netherlands.

Simone: 34:13

Oh, yeah, yeah you guys do it differently there because I I started to ask questions and I said to him like, yeah, I'm planning on a home birth, and he was like, oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, open for it. But you could feel like I could. From that first meeting on, I could feel, oh, okay, there's a different system going on here. And I just remember that there were so many ultrasounds and I started to ask questions, also to my gynecologist, like why, like in the Netherlands, you have the necessary ones? I mean, it's always a choice, you don't have to, but you have the sort of minimums. And then with 20 weeks, this is again a check to see if everything is all the organs and you check that it. But afterwards it's kind of like, yeah, that's it in a way unless there is maybe a valid reason for it.

Simone: 35:05

But here it's like almost every or every time when you go for a visit you, you get an ultrasound and, yeah, I started to learn about, okay, how are things working here and how is the system working here? It's a bit more medicalized and, um, you know, it's great that we have all these options and that you, we have great support. I also really felt in switzerland a lot was covered, like if I was super nauseous I just remembered him subscribing me something for the nauseousness and and you know it was like, but it I felt like it was more medical, more medical approach than in the Netherlands. And then the whole question of, okay, who can support me or guide me in my home birth. That was also a bit of a challenge to find someone and also how they work, because it was still very individualistic, like it was more one midwife working with someone, and whereas in the Netherlands you have whole systems. So there are there are practices where midwives are helping each other, and I'm sure in Switzerland you also perhaps have this, but it was not so easy for me to find, especially not as a newbie in the country, so it was not on Google so easily to find that.

Simone: 36:24

And then also the reactions that I got, which I've never realized before, but in the Netherlands, like you said, more of a culture of home births, and here it was I got comments like whoa, brave woman, or whoa, uh, I don't know like a bit of fear projected. I mean, that is always the case when you become pregnant. People like to I mean in general in life, in a way to sometimes to share their own experience, which were maybe traumatic. Um, be careful, especially when you're pregnant, like you can also say that also just to protect yourself, to say, oh, okay, but you know, I try to focus on the positive and on on positive stories and it's really important to to stay with that, because you so easily get influenced, um, especially also when it's being told from doctors or from experts, from like you think, okay, they should know, or they know and, yes, they know, but it's, it's always good to know also to do your research, like to ask questions, to look behind, like, look for the numbers, like, okay, I have an increased risk of this, but what was the risk?

Simone: 37:34

Okay, you know. It's like if you hear, if you, if you hear it in percentages, this is always. Then you can make your own decision again better, because that makes a huge difference. So I just had the I think, luck that I had this confidence from the Netherlands. So I felt already confident in my body like, okay, I can do this, I don't need to be and and how to enter in a new country, which, yeah, they sort of bombarded me with risks and things that can go wrong and how you should do this.

Christine: 38:08

So that definitely. Yeah, that's not surprising, but the part that is surprising to me is that you've already had a successful home birth. As a first-time mom, I can understand them giving you all the but coming from a place where I've done this, it was a beautiful experience. It was. Then.

Simone: 38:26

I feel like people don't have anything else to say to you, but they always do yes, and especially the fact when I was entered, when I was near the the end date, I just um, I found out that when I spoke to a lot of Swiss friends, like Swiss women here, like most of them Caesarian there were so many C-sections and in the Netherlands that is, you cannot choose, you don't have a choice. It's like, only if you have a medical reason for C-section then you can opt for a C-section, but a Caesarian sorry reason section, then you can opt for a c-section, but a cesarean sorry, but um, in in switzerland I got the question do you want a cesarean? Or it's like, hey, but I'm healthy, like I'm, I have a low risk pregnancy and um, so that was already a bit of a shock and the fact that nearly everyone, or like most of the women, get so nervous around 38 weeks and I thought but you know that the due date is not like a fixed date where everything depends on, like, if you go over your due date, then everything is suddenly too big or too no, no, and again, you can be monitored, and maybe more often and you can, but if you have a low risk and you are healthy, then there's no way that you should feel the urge to already get induced with, in my opinion. And again, I did a home birth with 42 weeks with 4.1 kilos. So there was another sort of example there, not just me talking with from, but, but also then I just I confronted my gynecologist with that fact. I said, why do you, um, suggest inducing with 38 weeks? He's like, yeah, but that's the optimal week to give birth in. I'm like yeah, but okay.

Simone: 40:10

And and I asked for some research papers. And then, you know, I became more and of okay, there's so much more to how to say this, to empower women, empower us. I had the luck that I had an empowering birth in the Netherlands, but there, you know, if this was my first birth and I would also maybe go along and follow these guidelines, and so then for me sort of the inner fire got also awakened, like okay, how could we get back again into trusting our bodies and listening to that, not just through the external factors? And, yes, it's great that we have the support and that we have the systems in place, but this is birth. It is not like this is a natural thing to happen if you have a low risk pregnancy, so don't interfere so much with that and give your body space for your intuition to really trust and follow that, because this is your birth, it's your right, your birthright rights, your birthrights, I mean.

Julia: 41:20

I think also hearing that other women saying to their doctors, and in this case a male doctor saying I'd like to understand this. Why Could you tell me why? And knowing that you are not a thing, that things are being done to, that you are a full human being who is able to make choices in their own lives and life and to ask questions. Maybe you, maybe, for example, someone, would still choose to go down this more medicalized path, but if you've asked questions, you at least know in yourself okay, this is the right choice for me in this circumstance, because we are all individuals and birth is such a such a holistic individual experience. When we rely solely on one type of studies, it really leaves the individual out and you are capable of asking questions. And then, when you have a child, you have another person for whom asking these questions might make total sense. So it's like practicing for motherhood, a little bit, in that way.

Simone: 42:19

Yes, 100 percent yes, might make total sense. So it's like practicing for motherhood a little bit in that way. Yes, 100% yes. And also to say yes to life, because you know you, you are creating, new life is happening within you and it's such a strong force, so much information is stored there, like you, you know how to. If you could really connect to that, like you know, you know, like the intuition part, and yes, it's. It's also, of course, if it gives you a piece to do a check, do that like, if that gives you a rest. That's, that's important.

Simone: 42:44

But, um, like you said, it's also to say yes to life means, um, don't like how, on what do you base your decisions? Like, how do you make decisions? Is that fear-based or is it more from a place of no love? And for me this works, and but that is such a thin line sometimes, like from where do we stand? And um, but it's, and especially like you you said, julia, that that that also sets the stage for how you make decisions in, in, throughout the whole life of your kid like, and how to make decisions in throughout the whole life of your, of your kid like, on how to make decisions, cause there will be many, uh, maybe get to practice that indeed, with, with with birth, yes, so start there Like it's a really an invitation and you feel it, it's like really literally inside you. So it's really an opportunity to awaken that uh, um, not a level of trust in yourself in life. Yeah, I, but I I still, yeah, stick to the plan to give, to do a home birth, this time a plant one. So I thought I can now do the salt lamps and a pool and everything around that.

Simone: 43:50

Um, yeah, so I gave birth to luca with with 40 weeks and six no, 40 weeks and four days and again it was very different. It was again unexpected, like, in a way, it was a planned birth, but it was. Everything went again very different. I did, by the way, always made a birth plan, which I can also recommend. It's just I mean, the word plan is maybe controlling, but in a way it's good to especially these topics if you bring transfer to a hospital or if you know under what you need to see an emergency cesarean, whatever it is that people know, uh, know your voice, you know. So it's it's great to have that also written out that you discuss this with your midwife, with, with your gynecologist, with the people at the hospital, with your partner.

Simone: 44:40

So I had that ready and then I just remembered it was the most quickest thing that I've ever like. It was a bit of a shock, like how my second birth was in terms of how quick it went, and I knew I was aware of the fact. Second, you know, the second babies, they, they come, uh much faster than uh, than expected. But I just um, yeah, remembered with, I still said goodbye to tiago when he left with his grandparents. Uh, this was around eight o'clock in the evening and luca was born, uh, 15 minutes past 10. So this was within it, yeah, it was, it, I was opening already.

Simone: 45:18

I felt it when I was playing with tiago, still some hours before, but, um, it was such an and again, a crazy it was. This was a really raw experience. If I could compare my two births, the first birth was a bit like out of body, a bit of sort of yeah, I was sort of spiritual experience, and the second birth was very earth, very raw, very animal, very like. Oh, perhaps this is how animals like like do it, it's like the normal thing we do to give birth. And then it was just, uh, it went so quick, but it I think what really helped was was the fact when I felt the contractions becoming more and more like every 15 minutes I saw them coming, and then every 10 minutes, five minutes, and then I thought, okay, I'm just going to lay down now, I make everything silent. I had my earplugs in and I did like a mask on to cover my eyes and Mauro was busy filling the pool, which, yeah, takes some time, um, and I just remembered like, okay, um, I can feel the contraction, but remember from the first time, simone, don't, um, don't resist, because you know I always had very heavy cramps with throughout my whole life, with during my menstrual periods. So my automatic response was always to like, sort of, oh, you know, like, resisting, or like, okay, you know, like, the whole body, yeah, tensing up my whole body. And I just remembered like, oh, yeah, um smile. That is like, really, I mean, it's such a simple thing, but it really worked. Like I just thought, even though it is maybe unpleasant, just smile, like, just smile, and already that movement creates again, um, um, space for the contraction to flow. And it's so simple. And so I just remembered smile, smile, smile, smile, smile and encourage your body, like, yes, another contraction, I'm opening, I'm opening and I visualized it and I just could really feel with the contractions that I opened. And that was again such an insane experience, like for the head. You cannot really wrap your head around it, which you also should not do because it's a reveal again, the physical body is doing it for you. But I was again so overwhelmed by the incredible power of how we can open and how we can allow our body to do to, to do it, and yeah, then the, the pool had just enough water for my toe to be in, so I thought, okay, that's not going to work, and I felt the need to push quite fast and the midwife was not there yet, so it was just me and my partner and I started to push and I thought, yeah, he's here, I can feel, I can feel it and I remember it. And I heard the midwife entering from the front door. She looked at me, she had her jacket on and she looked at me and I said, can I push? Like, can I, as you said, feel? And I thought, oh, yes, of course. Why did I not feel yet?

Simone: 48:28

Like there's also, in a way, again a sort of need for external validation, to to know what you already feel. You know what I mean, like it's, and again the midwives, sort of wisdom, reminding me like, oh, but use, use your own hands, like feel. And I, I started to feel and I felt his head straight and I thought that gives again such a boost for the women, you know, for us to to say, oh, I'm nearly there, he's here. So then he came to the world and, yeah, that was um, again an experience of how comfortable can I be with pain, how comfortable can I be with um, um, feeling at this ease, like, okay, can I really allow that, that pain or that sensation that's a nice word Can I really allow it? Because if you allow something, it becomes soft, like it becomes not so harsh anymore or not so, because you're not attached, it's like, yeah, you can, you can come Overwhelm me with the sensation, whatever it is needed, I'm okay, I'm smiling, I can do this, I'm safe, and then it disappears again.

Simone: 49:40

So again, it was such a mental experience again of how comfortable I could be with pain, because actually it was sometimes people say yeah, but it is painful. I'm like, yeah, but in a way also no, no, it's just for you. You make it as I mean. Maybe this sounds now a bit too general, but in a way also no, no, it's just for you, you make it as I mean. Maybe this sounds now a bit too general, but in my experience just talking about myself how I experienced it it was more. It felt like I had influence on that. That.

Christine: 50:10

I was the one influencing that. That's certainly that tension and holding everything, like you said, makes it more painful, definitely, and choosing to let go of that makes it, and that's such a beautiful moment where she came and could have easily said, yes, you're close, or let me check, and instead handed it back to you. That's yes.

Simone: 50:28

Yes, yeah, because you know, you feel, you know.

Christine: 50:33

Yeah.

Simone: 50:34

Yeah.

Christine: 50:34

Wow, and what was that postpartum like, I mean, that's different again with a toddler around and can't. It's not always as easy to rest all the time, or yeah?

Simone: 50:49

yeah, so we, um, I just remember that I, um, I really had I made a sort of schedule where, um, the first week postpartum, my mom came to us. So my mom stayed with us and first I thought, oh, maybe that's a bit too much, but actually it was so beautiful to have again another generation, like your mom, you know, like that, to care for you again and to to be close to the, to the new setting or the new family dynamics, and, um, I had such a beautiful midwife like she. She's, she's nearly retired now, but that woman, she carries so much wisdom. So I was so blessed to have such a beautiful midwife supporting me.

Simone: 51:34

And really in the swiss system and I don't know if it's in, if it was just my experience but what I felt is like that there's a longer period of monitoring and checking in with the mother. So, whereas the Dutch system felt more like, okay, we checked the baby, the weight, the, now how are you downstairs and everything healing and and yes, there's room for talking also from how how are you? But with with my experience in switzerland, it was way more focusing also on on my, my mental health and, um, also with very natural products.

Simone: 52:08

So um I mean that's maybe the midwife again coming in instead of like medicalized things, but it was just, we worked with plants and she did like steamings and she did like a belly massage. I was, I cried a lot. I have many tears just from from the loving I felt from her and from how I wish this for everyone to to feel carried after you gave birth, because it is raw again. You know it's like you, you have some, you already have a kid, so you, I also loved and enjoyed to care for my kids, so I always it was not that I could rest so much as with the first one because I also liked to yeah to to read for him or to make a sandwich for him or whatever it was um, but again to, yeah, to feel that love of support. So so I think that is really, and also from the new connections that I made, I was so blessed that, even though some friendships were so fresh that they would bring some food, that was really, really special.

Simone: 53:11

It was Christmas also, so everything was a bit more festive and warm.

Simone: 53:17

It was snowing outside and I just felt like I was a bit more festive and warm and yeah, it was snowing outside and I just felt like, oh, the cocon face. This was, yeah, it was a beautiful period. And when everyone left again, when sort of the first weeks are then over, you're like, yeah, okay, my husband went back to work and it was still cold and a bit darker days, shorter days, and there were moments where you're like, ok, how are you doing this? Like I now need to breastfeed a baby, but toddlers also need attention. We were really focusing also on you know the tricks of, ok, not too much attention on the baby all the time, because you know the jealousy thing and the whole integration of family of four. And so, yeah, what helped me was, um, but it was also the fact that with my first pregnancy maybe because it was an unplanned pregnancy we I was reading so much, I was really trying to to prepare, and with my second pregnancy, like afterwards, I let go of all the scenes, all the schedules, all the.

Simone: 54:23

I did nothing of that anymore so that in a way, it was also a very calm phase because I was not focusing on it anymore. There was already a family happening and that was also. I felt more confident as a mother. So, um, yeah, that definitely helped me also with dealing sometimes with stressful situations or with yeah, yeah.

Julia: 54:51

I think that experience of um, letting go of the schedules is uh, is something that many second time moms experience and and we can we can give advice to people having their first child and saying, oh, don't do this, don't do this because blah, blah, blah.

Julia: 55:03

But really I think everyone needs to just find find their own way. But hearing from people who've had this experience they have their second child and they're like you know, we're gonna find a way together, not that we're dragging this baby and not listening to them or responding to them and making them fit into the schedule we already have, but that somehow, as a family of four, we're going to make this work and five or however many children people do have I think it's lovely to hear that. I think sometimes people might not be ready to let go, because when you have your first child, it really is. There's so much learning and there's so much newness. That's almost like a gift if you choose to go on and have another one, even though they're different people from the start. But it's a gift to kind of be able to say you know what. We're going to find a way, we'll figure it out Exactly.

Simone: 55:51

I felt myself being way more relaxed. I was a bit way more fun mother actually I'm. Yeah, I saw in another version again of being a mother, like with Tiago. I was so still, so focused also with what I saw with friends like, oh, but he needs to sleep on this time. And why is my child not sleeping at this time? Maybe they're so I have a different kind of child, you know. You are so still searching and still, and, and yeah, I think that everyone needs to go a bit through that first experience, that to maybe then enjoy the second one. At least in my experience, I enjoyed it way more than yeah, than with Tiago. To be honest, yes, yeah, it was a different, different experience again. Yeah, most parts of the nights were not as as as traumatic anymore as with Tiago. In a way, it was completely different, even though it was the same situation. He was still waking up every so many hours, still needed to be changed, but there was just in myself a bit more yeah, this is okay, I know what I'm doing.

Julia: 56:53

It's another lesson of the power of the mind. Right, those nights with babies who are maybe second or third, you actually were like, oh, this is my time to connect with you, we're good and one day it will all work out, this will be okay, but it's very overwhelming and very um, uh, like unrooting, uprooting the first time, and it can be hard to rest into it. Yes, yeah, uprooting the first time and it can be hard to rest into it. Yes, yeah, yeah, um. This has been such an amazing conversation, simona. I have loved, loved, loved this and I would love to stay in so many moments of your birth and postpartum, uh. Before we go though, uh, we're gonna ask our final question uh, and the that is, in this whole phase of uh becoming a mother, what has been, for you, the most brilliant moment?

Simone: 57:51

how, how much power we store within us and how pregnancy asks from you to to own your body, like to feel home in it, in, in all of it.

Simone: 58:03

And I think that was you know also when the beginning with with Tiago, that was just for me.

Simone: 58:09

I was so, so disconnected from my physical body, like I was just dragging it along, it was stressed, it was overworked, but pregnancy really invited me again to come back to my body and to listen to it. So, yeah, I think you know, even to parts that were unknown for me, like really dissociated. So, yeah, I think I got really more and more into tune with my inner self, my inner strength, my yeah to get to know another version of myself again and I, yeah, I'm very happy they felt like really gifts, like huge gifts and transformational fear in my life. Yeah, I'm very blessed that I had these unexpected experiences and also two different experiences in different countries, and yeah that I wish this for every woman that you would feel that you can do this and you feel that empowerment within that. It is your time like. This is your, you can own your own birth and support is there, but it's your, it's your stage, so to say, yeah, you can do this yeah.

Christine: 59:23

Thank you so much, Simone.

Julia: 59:30

Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Swiss Birth Stories. If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an inspiring birth story or expert insight. Your support means the world to us and helps this community grow, so please also take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback helps us reach even more parents-to-be. Don't forget to share this episode with a friend or loved one who could benefit from it, and be sure to follow us on social media at Swiss Birth Stories for even more tips, resources and updates on upcoming podcast guests, courses and events. We'd love to hear your thoughts, questions and birth stories too, so feel free to DM us, fill out the form on our website, swissbirthstoriescom, or tag us in your posts. Until next time, keep sharing, keep learning and keep connecting with each other.